Wednesday, July 29, 2009

"Daddy, I want that"

In 1992 I walked away from that Arabian Horse Industry for good!

I made a decision that I would not take on anymore youth riders and their parents and I wanted to have nothing to do with the equitation part of training and showing as well and I wanted nothing more to do with the western/English "pleasure" part of it.

It was just a mentality that I was not wanting to deal with. The win at all costs without regards to the horses well being. Sanding their feet to a high gloss and shaving the horses damn near bald was in my mind, not in any way a benefit to the horse. But that was not all!

In 1992 I had a couple of youth riders showing in the Regional Arab show in Houston TX. We had 5 horses at the show, one of my riders was showing in the HUS class and my other rider was showing in the reining classes as well as the western pleasure classes. I had 3 adult amateur riders showing as well.

We would get to the show grounds early in the morning to take care of our horses and ride them around the grounds so they could have a good look around.

There was a trainer there with a horse that was also being shown by a youth rider who was friends with my riders. When we were in the arena working our horse this trainer was also in the arena working the girls mare as we left the arena the trainer was still working the mare who by now was sweating profusely. The trainer, in my opinion was abusive with his extensive use of the dressage bat that he loved to carry everywhere he went. Me being who I am said something to the trainer, who at that time decided to take the mare back to the barn.

Less than an hour later I saw this same trainer back on this mare in another arena working the shit out her. The whole time he was doing this, his rider and her parents stood by the rail and watched as this mare was worked into the ground. Finally a few hours later the trainer took the mare back to the barn to let her rest. From what I have heard the mare remained tacked and tied in her stall, but I am not sure of that. After the classes ended that day, this same trainer took this same mare out into the main arena and worked her well into the morning before putting her up. By the start of the days showing, this mare was dead!

And I will say that she was a really nice mare.

As far as to what actually killed this mare I am not sure and will not comment on it, though I have an idea what it was and that should be obvious. But that is not the point of this.

The point is, this was a mare that this girls father, from what I am told had paid over $120,000 so this girl could compete at a level that she wanted to compete at. When my youth rider went up to offer her friend her condolences on her mare. This young 12-14 year old girl looked my rider in the eye, smiled and said "That's OK, my daddy will buy me another horse".

That made me sick. Never in my life would I have ever imagined a child being taught that a life has only a monetary value and nothing more. I realized that day that there is a mind set out there that we have to win at all costs, no matter what.

But why?

I can tell you the I want my daughters to have everything they want or need, but they have to know that we can not always give them that. I refuse to buy them a win at a horse show or anywhere else. They are going to have to learn to lose graciously and win humbly. As do the rest of my riders. Yes we are into showing again and I do like to win, but I also know how to lose as that is part of this game.

Like everyone else, they are going to have to work hard and develop the skills that will help them achieve their goals. I still see it all of the time at shows, parents sparing no expense to give their child an over all advantage over other kids just for a blue ribbon.

I have heard parents tell trainers that they have spent a lot of money, so their precious child better win. It's no wonder trainers try to cheat their way into championships.

1,071 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 600 of 1071   Newer›   Newest»
horspoor said...

The two I have coming are broke broke broke. WOOHOO. They just haven't been ridden for awhile. Need tune-ups.

I may not be able to pick them up till Sunday depending on how the day goes tomorrow. Why don't I use the very cool red leather day planner I bought? If I'd right shit down I wouldn't overbook myself so bad.

rosesr4evr said...

What kind HP?? I love broke broke broke!!

horspoor said...

Two quarter horses. Mare and gelding. Mare is 7, gelding is 8. Both were in full training for a year or so. I've had them both before. The gelding for about 4 months. Love him. They need to find new homes. Really lovely horses.

Dena said...

Well roses...as I see it...here is the problem.
If HP decided you needed intervention she might be pretty determined.
Your mad would only get you so far. Mostly cause you haven't the sense and your balls would get in the way of your wisdom and you probably wouldn't run.
And that is the part where you just might be fucked.
You know?
Cause I always said, HP is a dark horse. And I always bet on the dark horse.
Cause they don't have a tell. So you wouldn't see it coming til it was already over.
You know?
She doesn't scare me because I already know her secret weapon.
The woman is loaded to the gills with common sense.
And she'll wait to get you.
The only thing thick about her that I can see is her hair.
Now I know that you are not one of those girls who would stoop to pulling hair.
You can bark miss thang down if she comes back K?
You are very good at it. And I don't want to share my room anyhow.LOL

And I am ashamed to admit it but much of the posting tonight made me think "crispy critters" and I do not wish to elaborate on why.

horspoor said...

So what is/are the possible horse/horses for tomorrow Dena?

Oh, and everybody has a tell. lol You know that. I think that's why some of the SFTS stuff bothered me.

horspoor said...

Hair pulling doesn't bother me too much...just don't fricken bite me. I'll nut up.

rosesr4evr said...

HP, you wouldn't be mean to me, would you?? I haven't done anything...yet.

No in all seriousness HP...A mare did you say?? 7 yo you say? Broke you say???

Tell me details!!! My BO owes me back board HEE HEE!


Word was: recon LOL

Do you know bloodlines on the mare?? What color, height, etc...

Dena said...

The little red filly that is double bred Mighty Tim.
And possibly my new jumper prospect if I have not completely lost my mind.
Because he has not lost his reproduction capability as of yet.
And they are both red. WTF!?!

Dena said...

I think I am vetoing the grey mare because she has a nice service home available to her in N. Dakota.
The other boy may very well end up on the truck if I don't take him.
And I have been ahhhh...hmmmm...ing for awhile about this.

horspoor said...

Mare is I think a Miss N James daughter. She's bay. 14.3 to 15h. Big hip, bigger than her shoulder. Short backed. Pretty head, big eyed. Quiet undersaddle, but plenty of ability and go if you ask. Good spin, good slide. Heat her up, drop the reins, she settles. Nice mare. She actually prefers trails to arena work.

Dena...red is good. Best horses I've ever ridden where red. I like red horses. Not gelded huh? I don't have any desire to own a stallion. I'll ride yours though. lol I just don't want to maintain one, and deal with other people concerning my stallion. lol Not familiar with Mighty Tim. What breed are these horses?

rosesr4evr said...

Will someone just give me a virtual pony so I can just drool all over the keyboard?? Pwease???

rosesr4evr said...

Aw...HP,

Too bad you're so far away!! I think she sounds really nice! And somehow I ALWAYS end up with the red ones!

Dena haz grey...drool....

rosesr4evr said...

if I remember correctly MT is appy bloodlines.

horspoor said...

Jamie, the mare is a light bay. The gelding is a liver chestnut. He's terribly cute. He's a Just Plain Master son, out of a Skipper W mare.

Okay, that is why I wouldn't know them. I am not good on Appy lines at all. I do like Wap Spotted, and Tudors Diamond Jim though. I'd take one of those in a heart beat. However, in the dressage court...if you show up with something in a loud color you better be good. lol They'll all remember you. It's not like, 'Oh did you see the woman on the bay?' Which bay, there were 50 of them. lol 'Did you see that woman on the leopard spot app'....they remember you.

Dena said...

roses you are correct on the Mighty Tim cow and race bred.
I have spent too much time on the fence on this and just need to jump one way or the other.
I am screwed on the filly she is a given.
Mister does not need his reproductive parts if I have him.
God for $100 why am I hesitating?
Oh yeah...the common sense factor of feed and care and cost of.

horspoor said...

I am not taking the two for me. If I could justify two more horse, I'd have these in a heartbeat. I really like both these horses. They are just nice. Pleasant to be around. Well mannered. Talented. Man...why do I already have 6. lol

Dena said...

I need to go sleep. I am exhausted. roses do I snore?
I figure as I have fallen asleep on the phone twice you might know.LOL
Have fun you two.
And roses I am closer and I already told you I would let you borrow the grey filly indefinitely. Heeeeeelllllloooooo...

horspoor said...

OH man...it's almost 1am. I've got to go to bed.

Night all. Sleep well.

rosesr4evr said...

Sounds like I would really love that mare. Too bad you are so far away. I could justify boarding an already broke horse till the fence and barn go up in the spring.

rosesr4evr said...

I need to hit the hay too. So much to do tomorrow! We're moving, yay!


Goodnight all

rosesr4evr said...

Dena,

Thanks for the offer to "borrow" the grey mare. But the one I get, when I finally do, will be with me for life, so I can't borrow her, cuz if she did work out then you couldn't ever have her back!! HEE HEE.

Dena said...

roses you really do underestimate me from time to time don't you?
Silly girl I haz a plan...

CharlesCityCat said...

Hey everyone.

I was just checking out the latest post on JR's Neighborhood, there are 2 comments from people who are digusted with the personal snarks that occured over there.

JR, hope I don't step on your toes, but I would like to ask EVERYONE to please keep the snark away from there. If someone who you don't like posts there, just ignore it. I have done so on several occasions, it really isn't hard.

Some really good posters are not going to come there if this continues.

This is the place for the poison.

rosesr4evr said...

I don't think it's so much as underestimating as it is not taking someone or something for granted.

Cut-N-Jump said...

CCC- glad to see you back here. Yes the condescending posts do muddy things up, but the negativity that SFTS seems to thrive on and also exudes, follows her wherever she goes.

Cut-N-Jump said...

SFTS- I do not need to 'smear' your name or anything about you. No, you've done quite the job of that yourself.

I do not care where, what or even if you show, as you and your lack of talent and skill does not frighten me or scare me in any way. You pose no 'challenge' and are not in any way a threat to me. My only concern with you is that I am unable to fathom the depths of stoopid or guage the level of crazy that you possess. You have already shown you will go to great lengths in your attacks against others.

Your continued posts of 'play by play' of everything you do, just shows how conceited you are. While others may take pity or feel sorry for you, I clearly do not. I am not glad nor sorry that the way you treat people has brought you to this point in your life. You can take full credit for that as you are the one who has bitten anyone extending a hand to help you. As you have lived it, you should know it gets you nowhere in life. Good luck to you with that.

CharlesCityCat said...

CNJ:

I mainly came back here to ask everyone to keep the personal crap off of JR's training blog. I know he is trying to keep it a place of learning and fun. I like it that way.

I did read through some stuff I missed on here and it was really amusing. I wish for more of that. The one reason I stayed on FHOTD for so long, even though I wasn't too happy with her anymore, was the interaction with so many people from so many different places and backgrounds. The wit and humor just really made my day. Even though this is the internet and most of us don't know each other personally, I feel I have made friends with many like minded people. It sure can be fun.

Kaede said...

JR I have a vent I'd like you to address. Or perhaps I think I do. Perhaps it is just the way horse shows work. I rode field hunters as a kid and a teen. Only went to a handful of shows.
I was admiring a horse at a Saddlebred show and (A chocolate palomino. Something I had previously called a flax.) The next thing I knew a stranger to me was giving me a sales pitch. Horses, much like men, I can admire them, without wanting to take them home. This happened several times at that one show (different people giving me sales pitched every time) and has happened at a number of different Saddlebred shows. I don't know if this is a Saddlebred thing, a "times are hard thing" or if it is "just the way it is done now" thing and I need to get a new mind set.
I also get pinged with offers of new trainers/ teachers or new boarding facilities.
Maybe it is because I really am what a school counselor once described me as: "Exceedingly well socialized" But I don't like knowing that everything in your barn has a price tag. If I wanted to know I'd send my agent over to find out. That is why they are paid commissions. They deal with it so I don't have too.

JohnieRotten said...

Kaede

I will do a post on that tomorrow,I have a lot to say about that topic.

Kaede said...

Thanks JR.

Kaede said...

I'm adding postscript. I trust my instructor. We get along well. I dare say she know my riding quirks better than I do. She knows more about the horse industry in our area than I do, she truly does have inside information about who can be trusted and which horses are going to be coming up on the market in my price range. She told me once not only to look at a horse as your BBF but as an investment.Is the horse worth what they are asking giving current market conditions, the horses training, breeding, conformation and soundness.

horspoor said...

Yeah CNJ...you're right in someways I do feel sorry for her. I wouldn't enter into a business deal with her...mind you. But there is something there that makes me feel bad.

I can feel bad, without being sucked in. Really, I can. lol

GoLightly said...

Kaede.
I sure could use some of that "extremely well-socialized". I have the exact opposite personality. People skeer the crap out of me. Pretty much always have.
I'm a loudmouth only with my closest friends and family. I'm still learning how to communicate with hubby. I can be okay on the phone, brilliant, sometimes. In person?(shivers)
I can talk to your dog, though:)
weird..

Good luck with your horse hunt. You are wise to keep yourself close to someone you trust.

Money seems awful tight in the horse biz, at least judging by the low number of entries I'm seeing at our A shows in southern Ontario. Maybe they're all at Spruce Meadows, anyway.
Numbers are low in the "pro" classes, many more are riding in the lows and ammies.
Calgary seems to have the dough, for now.

The well-heeled are a highly sought after commodity in the world of horse dealers..
I know you know that.

If you'd like to sponsor a horse boarded in Canada...
;)

I'm available:)

<") < Mel's duck..

GoLightly said...

A very basic horse primer site

You guys have probably already seen it. I'd be curious to listen to any critiques or questions or comments about it.

Nice to see something out there, that's short, and to the point. Doesn't mention anything ridiculous..

horspoor said...

That is pretty good GL. I like that link

horspoor said...

Okay, kind of stewing here. Not quite sure how I feel about what went down with SFTS. Thinking on it.

blueheron said...

I am knee deep in a hundred snapping turtles, aka five papers to write, six articles and two books to read, and one presentation to finish in the next two weeks. BUT I am really saddened to see the way you all have goaded, baited, bullied, and instigated with SFTS. No, she's not innocent, and she is perfectly willing and able to sling stuff with the best of 'em. Honestly, way to go, folks. Take someone who is improving, who wants to be part of the horse community, but has a few communication quirks that make things come out a little abrasive or a little skewed. She has tried--I've seen it--to change. I commend her for that. Shame on you all for following the puppet who has masterminded this whole thing. Bunch of middle school cliquish kids. Did it ever occur to you that her posting of what she was doing was a way to share, belong, and feel good? I never took it as a way of being better than others. Yeah, I have been irritated by things she's said, but every time I've talked to her about things in a kind, rationale manner, she responded quite well. But then I'm used to working with people who aren't perfect, and I'm not perfect. So I try to work with people and move towards improvement. I'm kind of ashamed to have been a silent observer on this. Honestly haven't had the time. I'll email the aforementioned mastermind when I have a break and am not so pissed.

JohnieRotten said...

Hp

My decision was based on several things including some emails that I have received fr her.

horspoor said...

Okay JR. I know we don't have the whole story. It did seem rather chickenshit the way Roses baited her that last time. I guess that was just the last straw?

JohnieRotten said...

HP unfortunately you do not have the whole story and I can not give it to you.

There was nothing personal against SFTS. As I have said many times in the past, I am on no ones side. And I will never take sides on this because this has become a battle between a couple of people that do not even know each other.

But, to me the most important thing is that people take resposibility for their own actions,and not blame others for their mistakes.

The Hood is a training blog and that is what it is for, but this shit keeps trickles over there and I felt that was the best recourse.

horspoor said...

Makes sense. I'm in agreement with you on the Neighborhood blog, completely. That is not the place for nastiness. People have to feel comfortable enough to ask what may be perceived as a stupid question...and not get hammered for it.

It is important to keep dialog open there, and if someone is doing something stupid, dangerous, unkind...and they post it there...they need to be re-educated not slammed. JMHO. lol Oh yeah thats me, ever humble.

Kaede said...

The thing is, at the moment, I'm not looking for a horse. I have a nice, old, Saddlebred from whom I'm learning a lot.
I like going to shows an listening to the folks around me. I learn that way. "Poppy's knees don't come up evenly. He will loose points for that" "War Commander's doesn't carry his head well." "Gallant Beacon isn't straight on the straight away (huh?)He keeps looking to the middle"
I take notes and when my instructor isn't busy, I ask questions: What does this mean?, What should I be looking at?
None of this mattered for field hunters.Was the horse sound? Was the horse quiet and responsive? Did he take his fences in a business like manner? Was he bottomless? No one care if he looked around, don't whinny or kick the hounds. This is a new world for me. So is this endless hawking of horses/business services to complete strangers. Part of me wants to say "We haven't been introduced yet, why are you talking to me" But that would be rude.
All of my kids Dear Son included know how to eat formally. Dear Son even finds very formal dinners to be easier than casual dinners. At casual dinners odd things will happen. Baseballs will land in the salsa, ribs will get snatched by dogs. But at a very formal dinner, very little unplanned happens. Even the conversation is planned. No religion, no politics, nothing that could be controversial. Favorite books, famous people dieing, astronomical events and the weather will get Dear Son through most evenings, and knowing which fork to use when and NEVER use your teaspoon.

joanna said...

Kaede, can your son teach my son table manners? I'm at my wit's end. Chairs are for bottoms, not feet! Spoons are not for shoveling, dear. I really don't think it's a good idea to put that much food in your mouth at once. Once food goes into your mouth, I don't ever want to see it again! I could go on.... He's only 8, hopefully he'll learn. I can hope, can't I?

horspoor said...

Kaede, I'm way more comfortable formal. You know what to expect when, no huge surprises. Much easier.

Casual, I like with friends I know well. I can get kind of uncomfortable in a big crown of unknowns...casual.

Kaede said...

Joanna:
It will come. You will have to be patiently insistent. I just kept repeating, "These are the rules, they will not change. You are better being more formal than everyone else than being more casual than everyone else.
EVERY meal is a formal meal. China, at least 2 forks and two knives and if needed a soup spoon, Water goblet ("Do NOT put your hand on the bowl of the goblet, that is what stemware is for") When we started pushing manners (about age 4) meals would often take 3 hours. We had to be role models and use appropriate manners too.
A dear friend of mine ( most of my friends now are people with Aspergers children) could not bear to make her son sit and eat with the family. (Dear Son doesn't always eat, but he can toy with his food with the best of them") Now he is 6'5" and paces while he eats. Food is set out on the table and he walks by getting a bite (1 bite a forkful of potatoes). Pull a handful of hair out of his head and and chews on the deck. I don't know if he would be better if his mother had this fight (you WILL sit down while eating) when he was little or not. I may just have been lucky.

horspoor said...

OH man. That poor guy. Poor mom. Is there anything to help him now? Does it become too late at adulthood? Are the patterns to ingrained?

Kaede said...

Joanna
This may or may nor make you feel better, but one of my sons friends father is a Navy SEAL Commander. You KNOW this kid has structure up the ol' wazzo. He has never learned to eat in any house except his own. Parents went on a vacation with him when he was 16 (he is now 19) and the kid didn't eat for 10 days. He would drink bottled water. That was the end of that experiment. He now stays home with the house sitter.

horspoor said...

Oh man. Okay, this isn't to be a real downer, but what happens when his parents are gone? If he outlives them?

Kaede said...

Horspoor, not that we have been able to find out. This kid finds food stressful. The fact of food stressful. It is there on the table. Wigout time. I'm guessing it is that meals are usually a highly social time. People expect eye contact and conversation. Again maybe I was just lucky,but I insisted on polite table manners while not stressing if any food was actually consumed. Thursday I was thrilled. Dear Son when out to a Mexican restaurant and tried to eat a chicken chimichanga. (Big step for him, usually he orders a quesadilla.) He didn't like it, but after nibbling on the edge he put down his knife and fork and did not complain. He filled up on chips and queso. I was so proud of him.

horspoor said...

Okay, so if you set up really good boundaries it helps. Routine helps. And not trying to fix everything at once. Just focus on one aspect...then move to another?

Kaede said...

We are trying to get the SEAL's kid to learn to eat at our house. His mom and I help him prepare a sandwich he likes (shaved Boar's Head smoked turkey on white bread no mayo, no nothing. The kid can tell if you aren't using Boar's Head. He Knows.) Then we drive him and the sandwich to my house (he has been over here lots for about the past 10 years) and try to get him to eat the sandwich here. We have now got him to be able to eat his sandwich in his car in my driveway. Progress is being made.

Kaede said...

Yep, basically that works for me. It has a name Applied Behavior Analysis ABA. Lots of controversy surrounding ABA. So it's not allowed to be a topic of dinner conversation.

Dena said...

Okay...Alrighty then...first things first. Number one we don't have to play with someone we don't like.
She had every opportunity to win people over.
But that is not her style.
Running them over is.
I am pretty well known for giving a person as many chances as they might need to get it right.
I am also pretty well known for being easy with the forgiveness.
There are however limits.
I am fairly accurate in my reads on people. And if I am wrong I admit it. And apologize for it.
That said. BH no how and no way. I think without meaning to be rude that you reject that there is evil in this world. And in rejecting evil as existing however do we protect ourselves from it?
It is like the sponsered kid at the very expensive private school that taught his classmates how to huff aerosol cans. 4-6 year olds.
Do I blame the kid? Nope. Do I want him around my kid? Nope.
Do I think he is evil? No. Do I think whoever taught him that is? You betcha.
Do I want to be associated with someone who hurts children and everyone who has ever been taken in by her? Ummm...NO! Do I feel it is my personal responsibility to rehabiliatate this person? No...
Whose side am I on? The people that I actually know and have experience with.
I tried extending several opportunities for understanding to this individual.
I was rewarded by link after link and allusion after allusion.
Do I wish to continue to engage or be engaged by this person? Again...No...
So while, I respect your right to think or feel differently, I am not in the business of accepting the unacceptable.
And that I do not intend to change.
I believe I have the right to say this as it was me she continually referenced.
It was me that she was rating her abilities against.
And No Shit she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. It was her intent. To force us to accept her.

I can respect peoples right to feel differently.
But I don't. And neither do several others from what I have seen.
And trying to shame us into embracing her particular brand of evil isn't going to work with me.

And HP there isn't a chickenshit thing about roses. She took the time to know what she was speaking of before she chose a side.
She has firsthand knowledge of what she speaks.
And I do not begrudge her whatever words she used to make her point.
Her point was pretty dead on clear.
GET ON OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!
We don't want your kind. And she was and is right.

I have seen and heard some pretty strange stuff in my life but I will be damned before I buy into this poor SFTS shit.
My symphathy lies squarely with her targets and victims.

horspoor said...

We all have our opinions Dena. I do not have enough information to form one. Yes she was hella abrasive, condescending and snide.

I don't know if she's mentally ill, mean or just stupid. I actually liked her at first. Seemed pretty pleasant. I don't know what percipitated the change. But it was a distinct change.

Emailing people, making unreasonable, one sided demands and stalker qualities are not okay. I was unaware of this aspect of her nature. That has been brought to my attention.

Hey, it still looked chickenshit if you don't have the info as to why. It had the quality of some of the posters that targeted you way back when. We know how I feel about that.

It will all come out in the wash. It always does. I'm sure this isn't over. There is always another chapter.

Dena said...

I'm cool with it HP. I don't even want to post about it whenever not necessary.
And yep, that was exactly the comparison I did not want people relying on this round.
It just doesn't apply.
But I am cool with the whys of all.

I posted on the training blog and I will post here.
I have Miss Placed Panties in the barn. What do I do now???

horspoor said...

Did you get the stud?

Dena said...

No...

Dena said...

He was 2 HP and only one dropped. That is no longer a bargain in my book.

horspoor said...

Nope, you are looking at $500 minimum, and thats if they can find the other easy. If they have to go in through the flank, the price will climb.

horspoor said...

And if you don't geld him and get it out...huge chance of the undescended one becoming cancerous down the road. Why, I don't know. could be wives tale (horsemans tale?).

Cut-N-Jump said...

Dena- first you find them, then you wash them. Use bleach. Liberally. Just kidding. Where are the pics. You're such a tease!

Kaede- maybe you were lucky with the manners thing. It seems that kids tend to do well with some form of structure in their lives, regardless of syndromes, illnesses and such. But then some parents go overboard and as HP stated about her student- they are overstructured. Leaving them no time to be a kid, unwind, think for themselves or be creative. That may be just as damaging as the overacheiver may feel the need to always accel to find acceptance. Even a minute failure can deliver a devastating blow. It's tough work being a kid!

Cut-N-Jump said...

HP- $600 for the seek and destroy mission in these parts. The cancer is from the high temps. A retained nut can also lead to behavior issues. PITA all the way around just about any way you look at it. Close enough in proximity too!

horspoor said...

I've heard that. The one I knew was just flat nasty. I was told that's how they are. Not something I want to deal with.

Dena said...

Me neither. I am fighting with myself. But my logic is winning.

CnJ I was late getting to work because they were late delivering her.
I bought batteries for the camera.
Tomorrow.
Actually today in my neck of the woods.LOL

flying fig said...

>> As I have said many times in the past, I am on no ones side. And I will never take sides on this because this has become a battle between a couple of people that do not even know each other.

But, to me the most important thing is that people take resposibility for their own actions,and not blame others for their mistakes.<<


YES - well said, JR. *applause*

As far as SFTS goes - I still did not like some of the ganging up. The antagonism that took over at every opportunity. It felt like a high school girls' locker room where all the cool girls were using all the cool words.... and no - none of that is an appropriate way to get any kind of message across. No one was asking you to "embrace evil"...

JR showed you a far more appropriate solution with the way he addressed SFTS over at the Hood. Honest. Calm. Measured. No sneering. No vitriol. Reasonable.

*more applause for JR*

My next comment is likely only going to get me a heap of typed abuse...

It takes two to tango. I am sorry, Dena - but IMO you have not been quite as noble or as innocent in all this overwrought drama as you have suggested. This blog was originally created to call out the two of you - as your "chats" were running roughshod over other blogs - no matter what the topic - with assorted targets and victims.

You know, if SFTS had suggested/kidded that she was calling the shots here on JR's blogs and that she would decide who stayed and who must leave as you have been doing ;-) - she would have been flamed to a crisp.

Hell - I know a lot of the background stuff and even then the way some of this has been handled has bothered me. I have to be open and honest about that... for which - if the pattern holds true - I can expect to be trashed. Maybe the pattern needs to be changed. Maybe we all need to take a step back and accept responsibility for our own actions - and words.

I know I am not the only one with these thoughts - but I am likely one of the few who is stupid enough to express them....

And yes, HP... there is always another chapter...

Dena said...

FF has it ever occured to you that it really would be okay to raise your ratio of posts that do NOT include my name?

You are kind of starting to creep me out a little with your constant references to me and what you think isn't fair.
No one here is me. Except me.
How hard is that to understand?

rosesr4evr said...

Bawk Bawk Bawk Bawk...

SFTS said...

In respecting JR's wish, no matter how misguided he may be, I will no longer comment on his training blog. Since a few people, namely Dena, roses, WST and JR's own wife cannot control themselves there whenever and whatever I post, the respectable thing to do is honor his wishes.

That said, JR, you have no idea on Earth what you're talking about. You based your decision on emails I have sent you. Really? I have no problem with anyone knowing the content of those emails I wrote you. I have said all along, and will continue to say, I've got nothing to hide, no ulterior motive, no agenda. On the other hand, you tell HP that your decision was also "nothing personal", and that she not only doesn't have the whole story, but you will not tell her the whole story. I am here to tell you, that YOU do not have the whole story, other than what Dena tells you. How about not lying to your readership?

CCC, I agree wholeheartedly about keeping the garbage and filth off the Neighborhood blog, which is why I continue to be amazed at the lengths some will go to in order to perpetuate their hate against me. I am resigned to the fact that a few commenters do not like me, and will attack me at every turn. That's okay, I'm not overly fond of quite a few of them myself. But let's look at the timeline on that blog. I made a nice, complimenting post and wished everyone a great weekend. That's what started this particular episode. Others dredging up their long harbored hatred for me and dragging the BS over to that blog, including CnJ (actually, she's been one of the worst offenders recently). I understand about a husband standing up for his wife. I also believe that if one's spouse does wrong, two wrongs do not make a right, and at least privately there should likely be come communication saying, "Hey, honey, can you PLEASE not do that on my training blog??" To do nothing only gives the other offenders more incentive to scream and stomp their feet.

CnJ, in my opinion you have lost any shred of credibility you have ever had by your own postings. You used to have something genuinely good to offer. We have shared many an email, many a laugh over email and in the comments over on FHOTD. Funny, but I first noticed a change in you back when Dena first showed up again on that blog. I was one of the folks defending her, while you and JR joined the others in relentlessly attacking her. Amazing how things change, eh? Negativity "follows me wherever I post"? Really now? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but there is no negativity whatsoever on my blog. In case you hadn't noticed, I post there relatively often. Kind of blows your theory out of the water, doesn't it?

SFTS said...

HP, I know we don't see eye to eye any longer, and will likely never "make up" over all this. However, if you believe that what Dena, JR and CnJ have told you, you truly do not have the whole story, not even close. As I have said to JR above, I have no problem with any of the emails I have sent him being posted publicly, including on this very blog. To claim that I was making "unreasonable demands", or insinuate that I was somehow "stalking" someone is not only patently unfair, but downright wrong. As said above, I've got nothing to hide, nor any ulterior motive or agenda.

FF, funny, but while I agree (as noted above) that the nonsense should never have been dragged to JR's training blog, I find it amazing that I am the only individual who is being held accountable for their comments. Had there been a "level playing field", where all things were equal and every commenter was told the same as I was, this would not be an issue whatsoever. None of it. All JR had to do was be fair to all, and not favor anyone. His cries of "not taking sides" is laughable at best. We have seen the result of all I've posted above. But your comments to Dena are right on. She paints herself as the innocent, while decrying me for doing similar. She paints herself as the martyr, when nothing could be further from the truth. She is thoroughly enjoying the role JR and CnJ have appointed her to. That's what you and all who come here are enjoying at the moment. Want to post here or at JR's training blog? You need to be given the "Dena Seal of Approval". No thanks.

Blueheron, thank you. I don't even know you whatsoever, but I do believe you're starting to "get it" in regard to this entire, ugly situation. Mastermind indeed. If just may be that you have NO idea how true that pans out to be. Take care...

Dena, the manner in which you run over people is so astonishing, all I can guess is that you blind them with your poison and then take over their minds. Some recover. Others do not. That you actually believe what you type (and more startling, that others believe what you type) is thoroughly shocking. I stand by the fact that you desperately need help with your mental issues. I mean that sincerely.

Carry on.

Kaede said...

CnJ your post reminded me of an incident before, and one of the reasons I went back, to riding.
I was shopping with a friend, it was January, we were talking about summer plans for our kids. The sign that you are a "blue ribbon" parent in these parts is if your kid(4th grade- 10th)gets to go to a TIP (Talent Identification Program)camp. You have to take the SAT in 4th grade and do well in order to get into these camps.
Her kid had gotten in to a TIP camp and was going to study something like"War, Children, and International Justice: The War Crimes Tribunals of The Hague" (that is one of this years offerings) (Sounds like work to me.Remember these are KIDS.)
One of my kids was going to Florida Keys to go SCUBA diving and sailing with her grandpa.
This woman turned to me horrified: "What if she ends up LIKING sailing and diving? How is that going to prepare her for college and her career?(Our kids were 13 at the time.)That was part of the reason I gave up going to country clubs (Besides I hate golf, swimming,tennis and bridge)and started trying to ride saddleseat. (I wanted to stay away from dealing with the same issues in field hunters or dressage. Mostly, I've been happy doing saddleseat. My kid loved sailing and diving with Grandpa. Grandpa loved them. Everyone won as far as I could see.

BittyBonnie said...

SFTS

Apparently you do not get it.

JR said it was not just your emails. It was the multitude of complaints he got via email that was the basis for his decision. WTF.

Are you calling him a liar?

I think not. He has been nothing but patient with you. I would have kicked you off a long time ago. And now you are here picking a fight with someone that out classes you in every way. I can not believe he lets you come back here.

SFTS said...

Dear DDV, when someone pontificates that they "know the whole story" yet merely has one side, indeed pretending to know everything is at best misleading. Was lying too strong of a term? Considering what has taken place on both blogs over the months I am not so sure.

You will have your opinion, I'm not going to change it and I can live with that. Your opinion is not worth my concern, as you have proven that you have no intention of being objective.

BittyBonnie said...

SFTS

For someone who does not care for others opinions you sure do keep coming back for more. But I think you should know, I was one who felt your comments were inappropriate and emailed JR along with others who have emailed me.

I will say this only one more time, JR has been nothing more than patient with you, more so than I would have ever been. He does let you come here and post which to me says he does not feel the need to defend his actions. He ha never defamed you as you love to always say others have done.

It also says more about his character than it does about yours.

But then there is a real question that arises here. Why do you feel the need to come back here?

Maybe you need more attention than you are getting.

bigredsmom said...

The two most vocal of you who ran a campaign against the supposed injustices on FHOTD - you know, calling people out, ganging up mentality, mud slinging, giving out personal information etc etc - are the biggest hypocrites of all - rules just don't apply if YOU don't like someone, right? Glad you are embraced here - keeps you from getting unhinged everywhere else. Oh and the whole being under the guise of concern for a minor kind of loses credibility when you have had your own kids taken away by the court. Just sayin'.

flying fig said...

scroll. scroll, scroll...

SFTS - the is the last thing I shall say to you.
You also have never taken responsibility for your words/actions - and I am weary of that from all sides. JR has tried to present a level playing field and yet that has been tipped and slanted and muddied up... but not by him. Look at all that ^^^ you just typed mainly to to lecture people who have honestly told you that they do not care to hear any of it anymore. I am occasionally guilty of not knowing when to STFU - we all are. You, OTOH, are almost always guilty of that. You do not get it - you either cannot see how you are coming across or refuse to see it... either way, it has run its course.

And I need to take my own advice and STFU about that.

>>FF has it ever occured to you that it really would be okay to raise your ratio of posts that do NOT include my name?<<

Dena - when you have been carrying a lot of the conversation of late, that would be hard to do! :- )

So if I have concerns about something you may have said, I should not say a word and merely look the other way and nod and smile? I agree that would be the best idea - and that is what people wiser than me do - and tell me to "ignore". I am obviously not as good at that as those wise folks. We are all entitled to post our concerns - and for those of us who do not keep blogs, this is the place to do it. Openly and honestly. Quietly. WIthout name-calling, threatening, sneering or any of those pleasantries...

I'll just suggest once again that we ALL need to take responsibility for our words and actions... and actually look at what we are saying and how we are saying it. Even if it does not always work - we can at least try. Fair enough?

And I'll edit and reword this many times before I hit that "post comment" button... ;-)

Dena said...

You know what I find a source of constant amazement?
The statements of, "I emailed JR" from a few.
I have never emailed JR.
Not once.

Neither do I think I have portrayed myself as an innocent or martyr in any of this.
I have posted some pretty vile and no apology shit from time to time.
I do not think I can be accused of having a "hidden" agenda on this.

And I will say this one more time for some of you who cannot seem to wrap your minds around it all while continuing to whine and complain about it.
There are many who might read here. And there are some who post here.
But some of you refuse to accept one basic concept of the make up.

You do not know what the real life relationships are that comprise some of the relationships here.
Words on a public message blog, or email based on a publicly posted email address?

Are not the same as the words exchanged between people who have real life associations and investments in each other.
They do not carry the same weight.

When I dealt with the situation with my dog many of my friends called, sent private messages, and did what they could as my friends to help me get through that.

And when they experience bumps in the road I would hope that I do the same.

We share our sorrows and our joys and our dreams. We help each other as we can.

Very simply put we genuinely care about each other.
It isn't such a great leap that we may also have some of the same values.

So all of you who complain about and protest what you perceive as some inner clique?
Or my amazing powers of mind control?
Get over it.
Because what you are really saying is that you want what some of us have.
Genuine friendship.
And that kiddos is something that is the result of something that does not take place on a blog.
That happens in real life.

Comment sections and message boards are just another place to beat the drums.
A place to say I have news.
Be it old or new.

The whole therapy aspect seems to be new. But my goodness a whole lot of the same SNs keep showing up to participate in that.

And for the record I have written off SFTS as not wanting any type of help.
Not as not needing any.
I do not want my day clouded up with her particular brand of unhealthy delusional representations.

As, I am not the only bitching I presume I am not the only one who does not wish to be exposed to or suffer through, association with, the lies and malice of a severely maladjusted individual.
Who has also shown themselves to be a predator.

And now I am going to find my Miss Placed Pantees in the barn and take some pictures for my friends.

And in true Forest Gump style "That is all I have to say about that."

CharlesCityCat said...

But Dena you are my hero, I will follow you everywhere, I will do whatever you say, your wish is my command, command and I shall obey, yada, yada, yada!!

I find your last comment to be so very timely. I was just coming back here to have my last word.

We all know that I like Dena and have had contact with her outside of the blogs for some time now, this is strictly my business.

That being said and as far as I am concerned (I don't speak for anyone but myself), I take true offense to those of you have implied or down right said that Dena has some kind of power over me. How dare you! There isn't a single person out there who knows me personally. I deal with things in my own way, if you don't like it, well all I can say is bite me, but be careful, I bite back.

Kallista said...

OMGod! I can't believe I read the WHOLE THING!

CharlesCityCat said...

Congrats Kallista, need a Tums or some Mylanta???

GoLightly said...

Spelling Police
"Forrest Gump"
Just sayin'.

Yeah, the only quibble I have is the smiling and nodding part.
We all have distinctly different, uniquely disturbed minds.

congrats, Kallista!!

479!!!!!!!!

hey, nice filly, Dena.

Beautiful story of Nor on the "hood", Fig.
Sad, but beautiful.
Horses make us make the hardest choices.

Part of the duty to them, as owners.
You lucky people.
Sorry, sheeple.

Kaede said...

GoLightly said
"We all have distinctly different, uniquely disturbed minds."
I firmly believe we all weird out our kids in ways we can deal with.
I love manners, so ALL my kids (AND most of their friends) have lovely manners around me. The friends that are vile probably just don't come to our house or the events we go to.
but all my neurotypical kids (the ones not diagnosed with Aspergers) LOVE to bate teachers and administrators. I don't care. Don't get yourself suspended and have fun. I'm not coming to your rescue and I can't write you a college recommendation. BUT you MUST do the bating mannerly. Insubordinate is OK insolent is not.
I gets lots of flack for this attitude. Most of the parents I know want kids with OK (not excellent) manners and subservial(sp) attitudes toward their teachers.
Come on kids! Stand up on your hind legs, but be polite. Nothing like conflicting messages.

Kallista said...

We all have distinctly different, uniquely disturbed minds.

Wow. Truest thing ever spoken on this blog. I've followed, much as I could, this whole thing. The twists, the turns, the making up and kissing, the claws coming out again.

CCC, thanks, I'll take that Mylanta. No, wait, can I have a valium, instead? And one of those fruity things, Bahama Mama? (I don't drink, either... :)

Reminds me of my brother and I. Fought like cats and dogs, til a neighborhood bully started to pick on us, then we allied and fought him together (the bully ended up being a double murderer, fairly famous...used to torture lizards, too). Anyhow, my brother and I, could we scream, hurl insults and did we ever learn to swear well (out of parents' range of hearing, though, we still feared them more than each other). And yet...we still played together, went to sunday school together, missed each other like crazy when we went to separate girls' and boys' camps (big mountain between us) and couldn't wait to see each other when the "dance" bringing the two camps together occurred.

Dunno why I tell you all this. Just thinking aloud....

The valium is beginning to work.

CharlesCityCat said...

Kaede,

Manners are very important. I was an Army Brat, you had manners, or, um, no, you just had manners. I treat people with respect and expect to be treated that way in return. I have brought my daughter up that same way.


Kallista, my brother and I were and are the same way. It was okay for us to pick on each other, but not okay for anyone else to. We were thick as thieves. We never ratted each other out, we protected each other.

Since we were Military and moved so much, we felt that we were all we had that didn't change every few years.

CharlesCityCat said...

My word verification was yinapp, my response is why not napp. I love a good nap. LOL!!!

Sherry Sikstrom said...

Dena , glad you got your filly.Is it the one you showed me pics of? if so good call!

rosesr4evr said...

Hi all!!

Well it's moving day and we're shutting down the computer, so this will be my last post for a while until we can get the satellite hooked up!! Have fun!

Those of you that want to reach me, know how.

I'm sure some of you won't be sorry that I can't post for a while, but maybe I can get a message through once in a blue moon!!!

SFTS said...

Au contraire, Fig. I take responsibility for every, single word that I write.

This indeed is telling:

>>> "Look at all that ^^^ you just typed mainly to to lecture people who have honestly told you that they do not care to hear any of it anymore." <<<

Of course folks who dislike me for whatever reason 'don't care to hear it anymore'. They wish to have me go away permanently.

I speak my mind. I know some folks do not like that. I stand behind what I say. A few don't appreciate that, either. But it's simply not my problem. Being outspoken has never been a trait internet trolls and angry people find admirable. That is all the more reason to be outspoken, particularly against things I find reprehensible and against abuses...of horses and people.

Yet, you tell Dena: "We are all entitled to post our concerns"

Is this to mean the rest of you are entitled to post your concerns, but not me? Interesting point to ponder.

Dena? Perhaps you should ask one of your friends how their horse show went yesterday.

Trailblazer ~ well said!

flying fig said...

SFTS - you completely missed my point. Maybe deliberately so. Maybe I was not clear. I'll try again.

Yes, we are all entitled to post our concerns as I said. Why else would I say it?? All of us - but IMO in a polite/measured way. Or at least in a much more restrained fashion than what has been going on of late. I cannot support the threats, foul language etc. that have run amok of late and been revelled in - and have said so. Speaking my mind... I usually just get airily dismissed for such foolishness - but whatever.

Nor can I support the condescending, dismissive taunting that you have enjoyed at times.

But when people tell you they are tired of you going on and on and you continue to do so as if you can talk them out of it... you appear to be doing it just to taunt them. I dunno. Maybe you truly cannot see that. But the condescending "tone" you seem to prefer does you no favours. And in that ^^^ post you just painted everyone here with the same brush in a dismissive way and did not care.

I do not know what is more frustrating - the all-knowing, longwinded condescending lecture or the OTT nasty flaming and threats. All I do know is that they are both wrong. It's like being back in 7th grade... and I did not like that kind of overwrought drama then, either.

You say you take responsibility for every word - but do you try to choose them wisely or consider how they may come across? It does not seem so - as is evidenced by the little dig at the end of your post about someone we are NOT supposed to be discussing - yet you simply cpuld not resist - you had to go there... completely uncalled for IMO.

Kaede said...

Umm, I'm lost a bit. Could someone quote a condescending "tone" that STFS has taken? I'm not seeing it. Maybe I have a thick hide (Not from my Dear Son Dena. I find him less troublsome than most of the academics I work with) No one has an ego like a Nobel laureate and their entourage. Except maybe Booker prize winners. Or you physicists who have make an important discovery (Neutron Flash perhaps) before the age of 29. I find it always helps to loose ones virginity before winning a international prize.

SFTS said...

Fig, do you actually read what you write sometimes? Because it's almost as though you have a different set of rules for everyone. Tell me ~ who here has been in any way polite or measured in what they say, particularly to me? Very few of the "in crowd".

I have said to you a number of times, I agree with what you say. But then you somehow find fault with what I say, how I say it, how it's worded or something else. Rather perplexing. When I attempt to have a civil discussion about something, minus what a few call "the condescending tone", I am still flamed or criticized. It's a no win situation, that's only solution seems to be either let you few folks deal with it, or leave. Again, I am not leaving unless requested to do so by the owner...and I have respected his wishes not to return to the other blog, which is the only polite and mannerly thing to do.

If indeed we are all allowed to post our concerns, we should also be allowed to do so as we see fit. You do. Dena does. Others do. However it seems that I somehow am not allowed that luxury. At least that's how I read it.

Btw, how do you deduct that my show comments were about someone, or something, that we are "not supposed to discuss"? Perhaps you are reading too much into it. Then again, maybe not. It was but a suggestion, and not in any way directed at you, so at any rate there is no need for you to take offense.

Kaede said...

The nastiest writer I ever had to deal with was Brian Jacques of "Redwall" fame. He reduced a group of kids waiting for his autograph to tears. He made a nasty joke at their expense.
The nicest writer is "Enders Game" writer Orson Scott Card. Really nice person. Arrived early, talked to everyone, was encouraging to shy people in a respectful manner. Just a top notch person.

SFTS said...

Oh gosh Kaede, you're going to ruin my daughter's opinion of Jacques! She started reading the Redwall series last year and loved those books. Tried getting me to take a look, but I could not get beyond fighting rodents. ;)

flying fig said...

>>If indeed we are all allowed to post our concerns, we should also be allowed to do so as we see fit. You do. Dena does. Others do. However it seems that I somehow am not allowed that luxury. At least that's how I read it.<<

You read it wrong.

And yes I do read what I write - many times before I post it.
Even then, it may not be the right words but it is better than just firing words off the keyboard.

>>Btw, how do you deduct that my show comments were about someone, or something, that we are "not supposed to discuss"?<<

Because my brain is bigger than a cashew... and said person has been the crux of the recent discussions and there was a show in your area - as you told us. Even an idiot like me could put all that together without having to read anything into it. I did not take offense - how so? I just quietly pointed out that it was not necessary for you to Go There. Especially since it sounded like a gloat...

Turning the page and moving on...

Kaede - I'll have to throw in a vote for Garrison Keillor for being a nice author. He was gracious and smiling to all - the very young and the very old... even though he must have been dying from the heat... sitting there in a full tux and red socks and sneakers... ;-)

Kaede said...

He is a nice person. Do you ever read the New Yorker? He can have an absolutely scathing wit. I for one would not want to end up on his wrong side.
Brian Jacques is demanding. (he had two have TWO packs of a certain kind of cigarette, a case of chilled bottled water, and would only sign a hundred kids books. Then his hand would hurt too much.)
My son and daughter had been big fans of his back in elementary school (they looked and behaved like twins. They are only 18 months apart and each others best friend as under 10 year olds.)
Anyhow Mr Jacques made what he thought was a joke. "So are you married to each other?" In a single voice, they assured them they were not, just brother and sister. He then went into a snide comedy routine about marriage between brothers and sisters. And trying to force my kids to admit that they were married. They wound up in tears, this man wasn't listening to them. The adults and the kids around them were laughing at them. It was a disaster.
It also happened to be the last time my kids ever wanted read any of Mr Jacques books. They even gave away all the signed copies they had.
I know that it was meant to be harmless, good fun, but adults really need to listen and RESPECT kids better.

horspoor said...

Was he drunk? Or just that socially inept?

Dena said...

No offense but some of you just have to go and reengage IT again.
And now, I just might be rude.
Why not make your own blogs where you can make the rules, and talk about whatever you want, and with whoever you want? Why not engage with her on her blog?
Why can some of you never let it alone?
Are you actually under the impression that this is some sort of cyber democracy here?
You want to engage and interact with a predator?
I sure wish you would do it somewhere else.
While, I respect your right to have your own opinions. Some of those opinions are causing me to lose respect for and interest in what you offer in regards to your publicly presented messages.

JR I will buy the fricking thing from you if that is what it takes to make the damn point!

I will not engage in any interaction or dialogue WITH SFTS.
I never want to be confused as someone who accepts the things she does to others as being anything less than the crimes that they are.

horspoor said...

Wow, just wow.

horspoor said...

You know what. You're right. I don't have to post here. I don't have to post anywhere. I may not choose to engage another poster, but I have the right to engage any poster I choose.

If that isn't how it is here, I will choose not to post here. I don't know what SFTS has done. I have no evidence. No facts. Just innuendo and hearsay.

When and if these facts are presented I may agree with you. However, I will never agree with your censoring others and who they may post to.

Dena said...

Ummm...HP that is just my opinion you know. Not some sort of directive.
Jeeze...

Kaede said...

Just rude and entitled. A bunch of us folks who organize book talks and such started comparing notes on which children's author we hated the most. Brian Jacques. Top of the list.

horspoor said...

Damn Dena,
It sounded like an edict. I mean really, wtf. lol

horspoor said...

OMG...that would be a good list to post. Shallow, but satisfying. Maybe it would wake up the authors on it.

Kaede said...

Just looked at Megan's law California: Neither Stacy or Steve is listed as a child predator.
If you don't like what she has done, that is different. Feel free to dislike what she is doing. But she is not listed as a predator.

Dena said...

HP if I had that kind of power I would have waved my wand or twitched my nose and the problem would have been solved before it ever became a problem.

Kaede I think the list you are looking at is directed at an entirely different type of predator.
And I have never referred to her as solely preying on children.
It would be my hope that THAT has only happened the once.

Kaede said...

Most kids authors are nice, they don't write for kids unless they have a message they want to get across. It is just a double handful that make us shudder.
Did you ever read "Go Ask Alice" a cautionary tale of drug use in the late '60's? Entirely faked. The woman who wrote it Beatrice Sparks, purports herself to be a psychologist and Mormon youth counselor, But when you investigate she is none of the above, except for Mormon.
Sparks made the whole thing up. She like the books so much she wrote "Jay's Journal" about dealing with the occult, "Treacherous Love" about teens having sex with their teachers, "Almost Lost" abut being a runaway,"It Happened to Nancy" about having an older boyfriend,"Annie's Baby" about falling in love with a kid outside of your class. I believe there is one about steroid use too.
All this books are wonderful horror stories. so formulaic. All have good, clean up white middle class kids. Who just want to have fun. But they go to a party or a concert. By page ten the kid has been seduced by the dark side and is been raped by an HIV positive person or toking up "hard" drugs. Life spirals down hill rapidly from there. Till they die at the end. Great fun if you have the right mind set.

Kaede said...

Oh dear, I'm out to lunch again. They have a predator preservation trust near me. It is where Lions, Tigers, Leopards and such go to retire from zoo or circus life. They have 12 foot tall chain link fences that are floppy. The fences are floppy so the cat's can't climb over them. If the fences were stiff the cat's would scale the fences and go visiting the neighbors. The "cages" are huge 3 or four acres a piece. As you walk down the path between the cages, sometimes you will find yourself being stalked. It's creepy. On the other hand if the tigers like you they try to pee on you.
We aren't talking that kind of predator are we?

flying fig said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
flying fig said...

Arrrgghh... Blogger seriously needs an upgrade. They need to let you edit in a better way than just deleting the entire post....

Dena - as someone who has constantly gone out of your way to engage over and over and over again (especially with SFTS) and been on the attack - even leading to the creation of this blog... dictating to other people what they are "allowed" to say is a truly WTF moment. HP was right - it sounded like an edict and a directive. And now I will get a lecture about referring to you again.... but that comment was heavyhanded to the extreme. My "publicly presented message" as you put it has never varied, thank you very much.

As HP said... Wow. Just wow.

>>If you don't like what she has done, that is different. Feel free to dislike what she is doing. But she is not listed as a predator.<<

Kaede - well said. Tossing around incendiary terms like predator and running them up the flagpole does not help anyone involved in the situation at this stage...

No tigers have peed on me - but I have been peed on by bear cubs... not that they were big enough to be considered actual predators at that stage. They were indiscriminate in their piddling - whoever was holding the milk bottle got wet...

Back to kids' authors...I met Chris Van Allsburg once... he was somewhat reminiscent of his books... fun and quirky. ;-)

I'll try this again... it was obviously overlooked in the rush to censor/ censure... ;-)

Turning the page and moving on...

blueheron said...

Shoot, I love, love, love talking about children's authors. Anyone ever read the Green Knowe books by Lucy Boston?
Grahme Base (sp?) is a fantastic person in real life.
I had always had a hinky feeling about the Redwall Author. Good to have it verified. I wouldn't read his books, or have them in my classroom library, because there was just something wrong....lol.

SFTS said...

Since my daughter is totally into fantasy series and loooves dragons, she's voraciously read many of the Dragonlance books, she loves Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels. Last year she finally relented and read the Harry Potter series (which I read too, some of the seriously best books I've ever read, I was SO impressed with them). Of course, Tolkien (though I had read The Hobbit, LOTR and The Silmarillion as a kid and always loved them). There are so many more. She did get me reading about Pern again and also Dragonlance. Many of the Wizards of the Coast authors are very nice, really interesting people! But the big one other than Redwall that I didn't like even after reading a few of the books was the Warriors series. She gets mad at me, but we have a joke around here that they are about "cats that pee on things", lol. :)

joanna said...

Kaede- have your kids read the Fablehaven series by Brandon Mull? They are really good. They get better with every book and apparently have been optioned by a major producer. The author was one of my husband's best friends growing up. So I can attest to him being a very nice person.

I had some professors in college, mostly my chem professor, that were insufferable.

As challenging as my kids are for me and my husband, everyone who has ever taken care of them for us has remarked how well behaved they are. They always say please and thank you and help any way they can. Thank goodness the training is sinking in. Now if we can only get them to understand that you need to have good manners around your family as well.

SFTS said...

Fig, please, if you don't wish to engage in conversation with me for whatever reason, or read my comments, just...don't. Please. But what you said to Dena is precisely why I have on occasion felt the need to lash back out again. My bad. As you've watched much of this (actually from the beginning, on both situations) transpire publicly, you can surely know how damned tiring it gets.

Now I am a "predator"? Really? And I have "committed a crime"? No one ever told me about this. In fact, back on Saturday I was told by a very nice Deputy Sheriff that I hadn't committed any crimes, and that I should just continue to do what I do, making a living in my community, with my wonderful kids (students and daughter) and clients.

During the weekend I discovered just how supportive those who matter in my community are of me. It was incredibly humbling. Not just clients and friends, but facility owners of the showgrounds we compete at, my fellow trainers and exhibitors, officers of every equestrian club in our area, the list goes on. Even I didn't realize just how much they've got my back. On the way back home from our horse show on Saturday, I almost shed a tear of joy to know how many people care deeply for me...not that any of you care. But it means the WORLD to me.

Thank you, Kaede. And Horspoor.

cattypex said...

Kaede...

You sound like one of my heros, Miss Manners. She takes a sociological view of etiquette NOT as a tool to make others feel inadequate, but rather as a framework that levels the playing field by providing agreed-upon rules that allow for maximum self-expression (if you're at all smart) with minimal harm to others.

My very bright, spirited and expressive kid is 4. We've started enforcing "Big Kid Manners," because I always said I'd civilize my daughter... but never tame her.

I'm not always mannerly. The southern Midwest is unfortunately suspicious of anything "Formal." Heck, I've seen people - GROWNUPS - wearing jeans or shorts TO THE SYMPHONY. Granted, we're not the Met, but .... it's NICE to have different uniforms for different occasions. Work clothes/play clothes/Show Clothes!

This whole drama has been ... long. Much of it scrollworthy. But it's good to be back.

cattypex said...

"No one has an ego like a Nobel laureate and their entourage."

HAHAHAHAHA I heard a story about a Nobel winning poet who came to our campus. She handed out business cards with her name and "NOBEL LAUREATE" in big letters underneath. Apparently she was controversial because she kept all the money for herself. Oh, and insufferable.

I work with a lot of academics, and find the Library people and the Biology people to be the most fun. English and History are mixed bags. Fine Arts full professors are really good at arguing like schoolgirls about really stupid things. Social Science folks are a little goofy, except Econ profs, who generally LOVE themselves until they get old enough to not care. Theologians usually have big chips on their shoulders and get very contentious and downright RUDE in big meetings.

Actually, a little bit pursuant to the original topic at hand... I hate it when Big Donors' kids get special attention.

Then again, a Big Donor made our beautiful and popular Equestrian Center possible, so when her family had a reunion there this summer, we hopped to it to make it nice. She's actually a nice lady, so I didn't mind. And of course it's for the stables!!

SFTS said...

Cattypex, good to see you again!

How are your 4-H kids doing? I want to hear all about it. :)

Dena said...

JR I wish you luck with this really.

horspoor said...

My son has been reading the Darren Shan books. He has read all the vampire ones, and is now working on the Demonata series. I buy them off Amazon UK. They come out there six months before they are released in the US. They are pretty gruesome.

He is now starting on Stephen King. He's reading Salems Lot now.

SFTS said...

Last year my daughter read Misery and Cujo. Both good books, though there were things in Cujo that grossed my daughter out. It's definitely not a "kid's" book because of some of the language and, um, subject matter, as she found out even though it was in her classroom's library at school. I loved Misery, so well written and made into a great movie to boot!

cattypex said...

A couple of them really improved! I wish our fair wasn't so damn early, and I wish you still had to qualify for State Fair at the county level. Gave everything a nice layer of meaning & sparkle for the kids.

Fortunately the girl on the recovering barrel horse only did walk/trot. Who buys a hot horse like that for a first year teen!?!??!!!?!?!?!

horspoor said...

Lots of people Catty. It blows my mind. Beginner kids, or adults on way too much horse. Oh, but he's fast, he's won this...yadda yadda. Uh, he's not a good match for somebody learning the game.

SFTS said...

Congrats on the kids improving and doing well, that's what it is all about!

You know, I think the lack of qualifying deal (and you see it on a lot of circuits, even some big breeds for their World Championship shows ~ APHA and PtHA come to mind) is in large part designed as part of the "everyone can win" and "everyone deserves a blue ribbon" mentality that's prevalent. Someone described it to me as "dumbing down" the show ring. Add as many classes as possible so everyone's got a shot in a division custom tailored to them, or let it become a free for all so there are "feel good" moments for all exhibitors. Not sure how I feel about that.

Buying a hot barrel horse for a beginner?? I've seen it too many times, drives me up the wall because inevitably the kid will get hurt and then the horse is the bad guy, and has to be dumped because he's dangerous, you know? One of my clients bought a Champion barrel racing pony for her timid rider daughter and it was a disaster waiting to happen. There was nothing wrong with the pony, she was just way too much for the little girl, and the child was afraid of her. Not a good combo. :(

Kaede said...

that is why I ride a nice old Saddlebred. I'm changing over from hunt seat to saddleseat. Lots for me to get use to like no padding on the saddle, horses whose neck keeps coming up and back to me, horses who don't ever really walk. I have much to learn from Handsome.

TheTruth said...

SFTS said...
"In fact, back on Saturday I was told by a very nice Deputy Sheriff that I hadn't committed any crimes, and that I should just continue to do what I do, making a living in my community, with my wonderful kids (students and daughter) and clients."

Really? Was that the first Sheriff you spoke to on Saturday? Or was it the second or the third? I was there for the third time you spoke to a local Sheriff last weekend. The person you think you are, (and try to portray to the people on the internet), are two entirely different people.

Stacy, you are unbelievable...

horspoor said...

I'm always amazed by the people who purport to have 'The Truth' yet have no identity. Brave enough to say it, you should be brave enough to own it.

Just my humble opinion.

Kaede said...

Hey Truth
Were you involved with the 3rd encounter? Want to tell us about it? How do you know about the first two? Were you involved in those too? Spill the beans girl (or boy) inquiring readers want to know.

Kaede said...

By the way what do sheriffs do? We have cops here. I see a sheriffs car on the highway sometimes, I vote for a sheriff every few years. the only time I have ever seen one up close and in person was when I had to testify against a person who robbed me. The sheriff hauled the guy into the courtroom wearing a bright orange jumpsuit and shackled ankles to wrists. Bad policy to make a habit of robbing fat old women.

SFTS said...

>>> "Really? Was that the first Sheriff you spoke to on Saturday? Or was it the second or the third? I was there for the third time you spoke to a local Sheriff last weekend. The person you think you are, (and try to portray to the people on the internet), are two entirely different people." <<<

Hey Christine, how about returning everything you have stolen from us? Like 90% of my tack? My saddle racks, my bridle racks, my clippers, all my bits and so much more? How about all my husband's tools that have mysteriously disappeared? My daughter's belongings, like her trashed and ruined photo album that you people unceremoniously threw into a (nearly empty) tack trunk? Our horse show ribbons and prizes over the past five years? Stealing a CHILD'S horse show ribbons, even going so far as to take the drawer full of 3rd through 10th place ribbons?! All of our personal paperwork, including our tax records? And what about paying for everything you and your children have destroyed? My other computer, my microwave oven, my filing cabinets and everything else you trashed that belongs to us? Maybe replacing the broken windows your little darlings smashed? This is all being fully documented. Seriously, do you think you're going to get away with this? What do you hope to gain by keeping all of our records, including those for my business, and personal paperwork including my father in law's estate/probate case? Why have you opened yourselves up to such a huge financial liability? Not to mention the months of libel and defamation...

For the record, we were paid a visit twice by the same deputy at the horse show we attended, he was the nice deputy referenced above who told myself, one of my clients and the owner of the show facility that I had committed no crime whatsoever. Sorry to burst your bubble. Oh, and thanks Mrs Tally for admitting you knew about that, which confirms what I have suspected for some time about your collusion with the other unnamed party. As you were the one who called the other deputy to your property Saturday evening when we came by to retrieve some of our things (as ordered by the judge last Monday ~ who told you that you had NO legal right to have held ANY of our personal property), of course you were there for that incident. Just be sure to get your horses out of MY arena, and remove MY pipe panel from your corrals before this weekend, or you may have to catch them.

Thanks, HP. This person would not know the truth if it bit her in the ample ass.

Kaede said...

Thinking about my robber, looking back on it, we victims must have looked funny sitting together, sort of like clones. All of an age, all of us wearing middle aged suits,all of us dumpy. Were we picked because we were fat? looked well off, middle aged? How did he choose his victims? We sure did all look alike.

horspoor said...

omg. lol Just stopped in to say goodnight

I'm sorry Kaede, but I had this vision of all of you in velour track suits all in differing pastel shades, sitting on the front stoop of the police station. Made me smile. lol

Goodnight.

SFTS said...

Kaede, yes "TheTruth" (who has no concept of such) knew about the sheriff deputy situations, which are quite simple.

We attended a local horse show last weekend, as everyone here knows by now. Another individual whom many of the posters here, on FHOTD and other forums are aware of sought a temporary restraining order against me stemming from discussions on the Free Speech Message Board (old FHOTD forum) back in January/February. This has been delved into here and on the FHOTD blog, mainly harped on by Dena.

Said individual attended the same show we did, and apparently knew we were going to be there, because they were fully prepared from the time they first set eyes on us to call the sheriff's department. The first time was merely because we were on the showgrounds at the same time. We were told there was no crime, that it was a public event and that we had every right to be there competing. Those people then called the deputy back again, making another spectacle, because my daughter had handed a longe line to one of my clients in a reasonable proximity to one of these individuals. Once more, we were told there was no crime being committed and the deputy left, after having been told by the facility owner that we were one of her best attendees at their shows and would always be welcome at her facility. This was echoed by the Board of Directors of the hosting club as well as the show manager.

Fast forward to that same evening, when my husband and I were going to retrieve some of our personal property which we'd had to go to court and sue for it's return following our moving last Summer. The person posting above is the female half of the couple whom we sued, and won at trial against last week for the return of our belongings. She called the sheriff's department on us because I was there, simply trying to recover my own possessions as the judge ordered.

It does get tiring having to repeatedly defend myself against this sort of bullshit (pardon my language). However, I am not about to stand by and allow these people to continue to try making my life Hell.

SFTS said...

Kaede, you are NOT fat! Sheesh. Stop that! :)

HP, that was a cute visual. If only real life were like that...

tbkisser said...

can you say "ISSUES"?!

SFTS, enough said, you posts are getting readable again, please don't be baited. Did you get your things back?

Just want to say SORRY to Dena for anything I said or thought about you! Sometimes life is indeed a "bitch".

Roses, I think you are one of the most vile people I have ever had the pleasure of getting to know(via this blog)do you kiss your mother with that mouth? I mean really people, do you actually hang out with people that talk like that? Cute, I THINK NOT, but I do know people love you and when it's all said and done that is all that matters. You know what they say, "Opinions Are Like Assholes" and this is from one asshole to the other.

And before you say anything, I am going to get the FUCK off here:)but I'll be back, cause I just can't get enough.
Congrats on your new digs.

KID OUT!

BittyBonnie said...

SFTS

You said smething that has really made you shine as the person you are. You said. Dena perhaps you should ask one of your friends how her horse show went.

That right there's says it all. I am sure everyone knows to whom you wre referring. You are referring to a child. And that makes you shine as a despicable human being if ever there was one. And once again itvsats more about your lack of professionalism than anything else you have ever posted.

My 15 year old grand daughter would never say anything like that. Time fir you to grow up SFTS.

JR we need a new post.

SFTS said...

Thanks, Kid, we're in the process of cataloging everything that is missing or damaged/destroyed of our belongings.

As GL would say........533rd! Sigh.

Kaede said...

Horspor, that about the size of it, but instead of velor track suits, put us in Coldwater Creek outfits, the conservative ones.Khaki or black pants, white dress t-shirt and a jacket. We really did look alike sitting on the bench in front of the the judge.
STFS, I tip the scale at 215, I am 6' tall. I embrace my fatness. It means I eat AND enjoy steak and baked potatoes rather than just a "light green salad please" Last week I had Chicken Fried Steak, mashed potatoes, deep fried okra, green beans with fat back, and REAL key lime pie for dessert. This is not an everyday meal, but I like to enjoy this type of meal when it does come my way.

SFTS said...

BB, has it occurred to you that it was a simple directive (as Dena has relentlessly done here)?

Why would it matter to you if I mention that Dena should talk to her friends about their horse showing experiences? What in the world would be "despicable" about that? Should friends not discuss their experiences and successes? Particularly when a friend has boasted about showing their horses [online] and proclaims themselves to be a professional trainer?

You're letting your lack of objectivity show, here. I understand that you obviously have a bias against me, for whatever reason (though I have no idea who you are, after having arrived on this blog not long ago). But you know what? My 17 year old daughter has far better manners than you, or Dena, or any of her sympathizers do.

It amazes me that folks who really have no idea about anything concerning my life have made such blanket assumptions based on a few posts that I have made defending myself, or who have swallowed the kool aid from a couple of deranged posters without questioning them whatsoever.

Kaede said...

I'm being Pollyannaish here, but could STFS directed Dena to talk directly to person X about her/his show experiences rather than hash it out in public forum? (The few blogs I follow I do so publicly, I once looked at Free Speech Horse Forum and was promptly overwhelmed)
I still do this with my parents who divorced over 25 years ago. "You heard through the family grapevine that Dad had eye surgery and what to know how it went? Why don't you call him yourself and ask? You don't have his phone number? Well ask directory assistance, he does have the same name as you and lives in the same community. It is worth a shot."

SFTS said...

That weight at your height is not fat, Kaede!! :( Wow, though, someone else taller than me! My mother is 6 ft, and at 5'10 I have always felt like a midget next to her, LOL.

I'd think Dena would probably rather keep that referenced discussion private, frankly, since she has had such a problem with public discussions of various topics.

You were overwhelmed by the Free Speech board! No way!! [TIC] It is an, um, interesting place, isn't it? I certainly am not one of the regs, and not much of a favorite over there except to a few folks, but every great once in a while I do make a post. :-/

Kaede said...

Dear Daughter # 4 is 6'1 1/2" (she doesn't like being called 6'2" )She weighs 128 pounds, just turned 15 and is the reason I ate that lovely dinner described above. When we walk on campus together she keeps getting asked if she is a new basketball recruit. "No"
Vollyball? usually said in hopeful tones
"No"
"Well, what sport DO you play?"
"I don't, I avoid sweating"

BittyBonnie said...

Kaede

It is unfortunately not the 'directive' that is the point. But rather the history and the rather snide remark about said 'directive'.

The problem is, SFTS has a history of this kind of thing that goes back a ways. There is no bias here.

You have remember Kaede, this is not the first time for SFTS.

I think when you talk to people and you start to hear of their history from many people. And then you talk to the person in question and their actions add credibility to others statements. Then you make your decision from there.

SFTS said...

Your daughter is a twig!! My brother is the same way, 6'4 and maybe 165, and he eats a LOT. Same with my daughter, she's a twig herself, but just 5'4. I wish I could eat anything I want, whenever I want, and never gain weight. :( Not that I really have ever had any sort of weight problem (and I feel blessed about that), but I definitely have to watch my calorie intake.

SFTS said...

Nonsense, BB. Just plain, pure nonsense.

Kaede said...

OK you all, I'm off to visit my mom in DC for the next week.
Keep the knives out of each other. I don't want the front page of the Post to have headlines like "Bloggers kill each other, FCC closes internet for the duration of the investigation" that would be such a bummer.

SFTS said...

LOL, seriously!! Have a safe trip!

Dena said...

Kid I am not quite sure what you are sorry for but I am cool with that. And thank you.

As to the rest of what I have seen here? It was not necessary for me to ask one of my friends how the show went.
I got to hear all about it.
Because that is what friends do.
They share.

I got to hear all about the beige outfit that showed every last flaw.
And how someones student did not show as much as watch her horse be shown.
By her instructor.
I wonder if they thought that was fun?

The funny thing about all of this? I don't really care.
Oh don't get me wrong. I care about the hurt experienced by people who have come to be important to me.
I care about the unnecessary wrangling between myself and other people I care about.
I just don't care about anything that isn't real.
If, I am interested in fantasy I put in a Disney tape.
At least, those always have happy endings.
I just don't see what is to be gained by taking what isn't real seriously.
And so I don't.
I just know that I can go to any show in the land, as can my friends, and not be disqualified.
There is something to be said for that.

SFTS said...

I am sorry, but................ROTFLMAO!!

cattypex said...

I AM UNDERTALL.

I knew it....

Kaede, how do you teach manners to a 4 yr old? At that age, they are developing this wonderful sense of justice. Mine does this furrowed-brow thing, with an outraged "You can't YELL at people, Mommy!!" if I put the slightest edge to my voice - after she's yelled (as in, LOUDLY) at me.

Can somebody please diagram this whole situation with all these peripheral characters?

Anyway... peace out.

TheTruth said...

Stacy, Stacy, Stacy....First off this is not Christine. This is the other half, Jack. My sign on is TheTruth for one reason. I will only speak about the FACTS that I have first hand knowledge of.

I apologize if I don't have the time to respond to you during the day. I, unlike U, pay taxes and actually provide for my family. You on the other hand live in a dream world and have other people provide for your family.

Horspoor, to clear up your original concern, my name is Jack Tally and I am the last property owner in a long list of property owners to evict Stacy and her family. To be honest, I still have empathy for her husband and daughter.

Hey Keade, since you asked, yes I will tell the inquiring minds. In the summer of 2006 my wife met Stacy. Stacy always makes a good first impression. I TRUSTED her to teach my wife and step-daughter about horse ownership and safe riding. Seemed like a perfectly innocent relationship at first. By the end of Nov. 2007, she came to my wife with a story about why she had to leave their rented trailer that any person with a heart would reach out and help. That is exactly what I did. I reached out and helped.

Stacy and her family moved in Dec 1st. 2007 in their 1980's trailer. It gets cold up here in the high desert, so I allowed her daughter to stay in the house. I financially provided her family with a very comfortable holiday season. I thought that was all they needed to get back on their feet. Turns out, that was not the case.

Very quickly there was friction between Stacy and my wife and step-daughter. From the time Stacy's family moved in, my wife received one lesson and my step-daughter received a few lessons. But her so called daily teaching methods were so abrasive that my girls immediately recoiled. I don't doubt that Stacy knows what she is doing with horses. What I do know is that she has absolutely NO people skills. I am quite sure that anybody that has read her postings fully understands that fact.

Her husband was helpful at first around the property. He was also compensated for it. I paid him for each job and also gave him $20 to $40 every three or four days every time he came to me and asked. Hell, I paid for Stacy's 2008 Mother's Day dinner. What a joke.....

I NEVER received 1 penny from Stacy (or her husband). I actually had to pay for feed for the three horses that she brought here from Jan 2008 until the day they left. The only thing I would not pay for was the farrier and she bounced a check on him! Still not taken care of. Great horse owner!

After all this, I was forced to serve her with a 30-Day Notice to Terminate Vacancy on July 1st 2008. They didn't move until Sept 4th 2008. The only way they were able to get off my property was for me to GIVE them another $500 (check number 2373 dated 8-24-08).

I will address the balance of the facts tomorrow evening when I get home. Gotta go to bed.

Respectfully, Jack Tally (transparent enough?)

horspoor said...

Okay, this all sounds very plausible to me. Yeah, I think Stacy does lack people skills. It doesn't make her a monster...but it is a fact.

Here is my take on the deal. I have no idea what is real and what isn't. I don't know about any laws she has broken. I don't know what ethics/scruples she has or hasn't. I do know that in all disagreements there is your side, my side and the right side. We are all subjective when we or people we care about are involved.

I don't think she is a saint. Never have. I've seen the web page, and no...not my style of training horses. Sadly (to me) it is the style of a great many.

I've got no dog in this fight. I just don't like it when it looks and feels like bullying. This is not the arena to settle this dispute.

flying fig said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
flying fig said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
flying fig said...

Holy crap - I did not realize that this post went up THREE times!!!
It was not even remotely that noteworthy! *snort*
Blogger seems to hate me tonight/this morning!!

Thank you, horspoor - that was very well said. One puzzling observation... this blog is not exactly mainstream. So how would a newbie know where to find it or know that SFTS was even posting here? Google does not point you here.

I have never been a fan of little games of intrigue...

Aside from all that... I also feel a bit saddened that people will insert themselves into others' lives or issues as an end to a means... that just feels very wrong to me on many levels... YMMV.

But in the end... it is all about the horses - and I think that is where the majority of our hearts lie... not with the intrigue. Not with the drama.

SFTS said...

Okay, Jack, first of all how about telling "The Truth"? How about controlling your wife's insane need to troll internet forums, blogs and various sites to stalk and harass me? What about following the Court Order against you and returning our property, which we have had to fight for TEN MONTHS to actually be able to gain access to? Everything and more that was posted in my message to you above?

Let's go back and correct you now:

Your little snide (typical) dig about "paying taxes" and "providing for family"? We're doing just fine...in case you hadn't noticed. Without YOU!! Paying rent, with a landlady who ADORES us (for a lot longer than we stayed with you ~ imagine that), paying all our bills/utilities and so forth.

We don't smoke dope, either...

Long list of property owners to evict us. Let's see ~ the few unfortunate instances of actual "eviction" over many years have been addressed on FHOTD. EMPATHY for any member of my family?!?!?!?!?! Bullshit. If you had any "empathy", Jackie-boy, you would have not destroyed (or allowed your wife and children to destroy) so many of our belongings, you would not have allowed your wife to steal so much of my tack and you would not have allowed your wife to steal (and offer to freely distribute) 15 years of our personal paperwork and business records. Well, that's just common decency, which neither you or your family has ever had.

Here's the funny part about that "first impression" thing, Jack. I have several clients who have been with me as clients for YEARS longer than your wife, dating back as far as 2002 and even 1995. So your "first impression" bit may impress a few here, but it's entirely inaccurate.

Yes, we moved on December 1, 2007 to the Tally's property, which began another chapter in our long nightmare. This was, of course, due to the fact that we had voluntarily left KC Arabians, where the whole child molester situation transpired.

Allowing my daughter to stay in the house had nothing to do with how cold it was, and had everything to do with your step-daughter's fast friendship with my daughter (which still exists today, despite your mentally disturbed wife's attempts to destroy that relationship/friendship), so once again, please do not lie.

We always appreciated your allowing us to stay with you, and thanked you profusely for the Xmas gifts that year as well as everything else, and you know that. But you should have comprehended exactly what the situation was, when told ~ that we had zero income upon leaving KCA and we immediately began working toward "getting back on our feet".

To this day, there is no "friction" between your step-daughter and I. The only friction that existed for a brief time between us was because you both entirely and completely fail to discipline your children and step-children whatsoever. You even asked me to help you administer such upon our moving to the property, because your wife was incapable of doing so.

SFTS said...

Abrasive teaching skills???????? LOL!! Is that why I am so loved by ALL my other students, and that I have the reputation for being one of the most empathetic and most fun instructors in the area? I still have former students who see me in town running up to me and giving me hugs, and I constantly get calls from former clients and students on pretty much a daily basis with how much the kids adore me. So once again, please don't lie to folks here. One example, claiming I don't possess "people skills" from a sour grapes situation proves nothing, Jack. Not to mention the fact that you never even met any of the other students, parents or clients. Way to go with making assumptions!

You wife received TWO lessons, and that was because she never bothered to actually SET UP lessons with me. I continually asked her, "When do you want to ride??" She would make a vague mention, but NEVER follow through. In fact, generally she was either sitting on the computer in her bedroom all day, or passed out on the bed all day. I offered her thousands of dollars in FREE lessons (which she offered to pay for, and I turned down). Your step-daughter got increasingly more insolent about her responsibilities (which YOU gave to me to administer) because of the above-mentioned lack of discipline on your part. She was given dozens of lessons at no cost. I even went so far as to take her to a horse show FOR FREE, letting her ride one of my horses FOR FREE, and borrowing my daughter's show clothes FOR FREE in order to give her some experience. The only reason why that relationship deteriorated at the time was because it was "too much work" (her words) to get ready for horse shows and that she didn't want to put in the hours riding in order to better her skills.

Plus, that "friction" took months to set in ~ and you know that it was over cleaning the bathroom and nothing else. Your wife went so far as to admit that to at least one other individual she found upon trolling an Arabian message forum last year.

My husband was ALWAYS helpful around the property, and was never fully compensated for his many hours of labor. You even admitted you could not afford to pay him properly for either building your wife her tack room, for working the bulldozer or anything else. So again, do not lie. You paid him a pittance, and that is all. $20 to $40 "every few days". Not. Maybe you offered to give him a $20 bill a couple of times.

You "never received a penny" in rent, because you never requested any rent. We never received anywhere near the value of our services given to you ~ it was quid pro quo.

Just like when your wife lied to you about Mazzy. It was a LOAN, because your wife claimed you did not have the $1500 to pay for the horse outright, so I LOANED her $750 and she even made me change the wording on the contract to extend the period to pay me back indefinitely, because she repeatedly claimed you did not have the money and might not at the end of six months post purchase. Remember, this was also the horse you gave away to someone who knew nothing about horses and was severely neglected because of your carelessness.

SFTS said...

>>> "I actually had to pay for feed for the three horses that she brought here from Jan 2008 until the day they left." <<<

In a word, BULLSHIT.

I paid for my horses' feed through February of 2008, until your wife offered at the feed store to buy hay for my horses. At first I resisted, until she insisted. So, from March until May of 2008 you paid on occasion for hay that my horses consumed, when you informed me that you could not afford to continue to help us pay for feed, and we carried that expense in it's entirety from that time until we moved, and we continue to do so.

Do the lies from you never stop?

Farrier ~ because of the horrific job done on my *one* horse who was made lame by that farrier in question. But thanks for spreading the story about "bouncing checks all over town" to anyone who would listen to your wife.

You were "forced" to terminate tenancy by your wife and because of your wife, with her issues over the bathroom. Nothing more. Even when you came to us drunk as a skunk during that time period, and I explained that to you, it didn't sink in. Remember? The night we had to call the police on you because of the harassment and drunken fit you folks were throwing?

That $500? That you were terrified your wife was going to find out about? We never asked you for that, nor needed it. That was a gift from you to Steve, because of how much you liked him and wanted to help him out. It had nothing to do with "getting us off the property".

It was amazing, and telling, when your next door neighbor, your wife's former best friend, comes up to both my husband and I (at separate times) at the grocery store to tell us all about the bullshit your wife has perpetrated against them, including trying to get your neighbor fired from her job! That right there tells me about what kind of people, and what kind of neighbors, you are.

Btw, Jack? Tell your wife to stop stalking me in the community, to stop driving by my home, to stop following my husband, to stop lying and harassing, to stop her campaign of defamation and to stop texting me. Tell your wife to stop giving out my mother's phone number to random people so they can harass her.

Then get yourself prepared to defend yourself in Court again.

To conclude...so "Mr Truth", tell these people why you will not return our personal paperwork.

Dena said...

Fig this is what I mean. You say one thing and then come with another.
How would a newbie? Wow. Presume much?
Do you suppose they followed from fhotd like the rest of us?
And how many times were these folks referenced there and here before saying something?

Hey Jack tell Christy I said, "Hi." Sorry to hear you all had to go through more drama on your own property that you actually pay the mortgage and the taxes on.
Sorry to hear that you all had to deal with this period after extending a helping hand.
That was apparently attached to your checkbook.
That was backed by your labor in the real world.

SFTS said...

flying-fig wrote:
One puzzling observation... this blog is not exactly mainstream. So how would a newbie know where to find it or know that SFTS was even posting here? Google does not point you here.
- - - - - - - -

You know that friend of Dena's that I mentioned the other day, the one who attended the same horse show we went to last Saturday? There's your answer. I already explained that relationship (and these peoples' friendship with Dena herself as ringleader from afar) previously. That individual, these people (Tally) and Dena. Oh, and let's not forget the owner of the facility I left due to the child molester. All friends. Some group, eh?

SFTS said...

LOL...thanks for admitting your role here, Dena. Truly!

SFTS said...

Christine Tally ~ STOP TEXTING ME your insane, delusional rantings.

I am fully aware you are reading this, as I noted to you at Court on July 27th, 2009 where you lost at trial.

This will be pursued to the fullest extent of the law, including your constant harassment.

SFTS said...

Here, for those of you who still hold Dena Rodacker in the highest regard, is positive proof of her duplicity in this situation:

After she sent me an unsolicited email praising me back on July 11, 2009, I replied with the following~

* * *

"There is one small nagging issue which I can't seem to shake from the back of my head. I really hope this does not lead to another knock down, drag out...or another pissing match, because I am just not in the mood for such and it's simply not productive.

That said, I am fairly certain you have more likely than not communicated with a couple of folks who I have had/am having disputes with in this *real life* of mine. Two in particular, based on your posts and comments. Not that you "went looking" for information, but rather because information came to you. I can get into that by going back to do some research when I have the time, however I am hoping this won't lead to or require that.

Blogger ID "onmyway", who claims to know me, can only be one individual. Actually, there are several SN's that have posted to FHOTD that can only be one individual, based upon information publicly posted, as well as provided to me privately. Also, as to this comment left on your other blog:

>>> "Anonymous said...

Dena, will you please email me at
Moiety001@yahoo.com
It's personal. Not against you, I just need some insight.
Thank you!" <<<

I don't know if you ever took this person up on their offer to email you, however I know who this is, as well. And the information ("insight") they were seeking was in relation to me.

Please understand, my wish is not to put you in the middle of a personal squabble, however there has been some damaging "behind the scenes" done here and we are in the middle of legal action at this time. My only recourse per my lawyer is to request information from persons I believe may have been contacted by these individuals, and if such is denied, to issue subpoenas. I have NO desire to do so. But, as this is an issue which severely affects and impacts my family and my business, I am left with little choice.
"

* * *

Her response to that was as follows (note where she mentions NEVER HAVING ANY CONTACT with ANYONE...and that she would "freely give" information about those who have contacted her about me had it actually happened ~ we now know, of course, that was a lie) ~

* * *

"As to being contacted by others? The one off my blog? I was under the impression that the email address given vs. the other SN were separate people.

I can in all honesty and truth tell you that I have been contacted by no one wishing or trying to do you harm or in any way negatively affect your reputation or life.

No one has tried to list your supposed sins or transgressions to me. If I had any power to do such, I wish it were possible for you and all the people you speak of, as having tried to ruin your life and your business, to find forgiveness for each other and move on.

I know that isn't always possible.

And I also know that sometimes there is just too much hurt and hard feelings to even want to. I am speaking from personal experience here. My own life.

I have no idea what you have been through. By the same token I have no idea what the others feel they have been through. No one has told me anything I can understand.

Sorry, you are the only one I have heard any of the details from and when a person is or feels under attack what is expressed isn't always clear you know what I mean?

Most importantly, I was not there. I have no personal experience of.

I sincerely hope things continue to improve for you and your's.

If I had anything at all that would help resolve this situation it wouldn't be necessary to subpoena it. I would give it freely and willingly. If nothing else I hope that will bring you some ease and peace of mind. Life is hard enough without anyone deliberately and unnecessarily making it so.


* * *

SFTS said...

I then went back and asked Dena the following:

* * *

Okay now I have got to ask, why is it that you're under the impression the email given and the other screen name were different people? How did you come to that conclusion? I am simply curious because of a genuine concern in wanting to know what impression others are being given.

And when you say you haven't been told anything you understand. What HAVE you been told?


* * *

Dena, of course, continued to lie about the situation and contact she'd had with these people:

* * *

I got that impression if you can call it that because the email was from someone asking me some general information on horses/rescues etc. if I remember correctly.

The only interaction I had with the SN was on the blog.

My email box usually presents me with 50 to 100 items per day so sometimes it is hard to remember who is who if I don't have any type of regular contact with them or an established relationship.

In reference to what I meant I only relied on the information you yourself posted or had on your website. I may have gone into left field when some other people posted on fhotd but when I got my stupid temper back under control I remembered how wrong I thoought it was for others to do that so it wasn't okay for me to either.

The whole 2 wrongs will never make a right thing.


* * *

Stellar individual, that Dena.

Dena said...

The facility she left voluntarily because of a child molester?

*Correction-The facility that she stayed at with her child for like a year after becoming aware?
The facility whose eviction against her she fought?
Because she was so concerned about the danger presented?

Will the Free Ride Fanny Queen of the local non-affiliated Hesperia saddle club shows never shut up?

I am guessing probably not til she gets hauled off or can't afford the internet.

JR about my offer to buy this? Where are we at on it?
Seriously.

I am fully prepared to pay. Just not the way the psycho nutbag might be thinking.

SFTS said...

Correction to Dena's rambling (amazing, isn't it, how one Dena Rodacker, who lives 1800+ miles away from us in Minnesota, thinks she knows so much about my life...):

We found out about the child molester in question on June 29th, 2007 when the police arrested him and the day myself, my daughter and a couple of students were interviewed by the arresting deputy about the situation which caused his violation of his sex offender registration terms.

At that time, both my husband and my entire income was tied up on the facility in question and I was one week away from holding our annual Youth Summer Camp, with many students already paid for (which ran for two weeks), a commitment we had to honor.

Shortly after Camp was over, my family began looking for a way to move off the property, due to the increasingly untenable situation which ensued. However, due to the fact regarding our income, doing so was incredibly difficult.

In September of 2007 the trial at which my daughter and I were subpoenaed to testify in was held, which resulted in the conviction.

We "fought" the eviction ~ only because the people attempted illegally to rely on a three day notice to vacate, and by law we were to have been given more time (30 days as opposed to 3 days). We won in Court at trial, where they issued a proper 30 day notice and we voluntarily moved within that 30 day time frame, along with leaving the property in exactly the same condition as when we moved in.

Dena Rodacker, being the expert on being evicted (see the FHOTD post citing her eviction last year), should get her facts straight.

Signed, a very proud supporter of local equestrian clubs.

Dena said...

I am so laughing. My eviction? From last year?
Then do explain why my address has been the same for 26 months.
And why the property taxes and insurance are in my name.
Oh yeah, that's right...because I won the property in question.

Dena said...

Ooops. won=own

SFTS said...

LMAO Dena...I thought you weren't going to talk to me anymore?


Go check the record, folks. Erhm, Dena's "stellar" record.

Gotta go do some lessons, have fun. :)

JohnieRotten said...

Well Dena it is tempting. Email me an offer!

I do not check in here very often and I amazed as to where this has gone. WOW!

I have been spending most of my time working and writing a book and I came back here to post a new thread that Karde brought up and I think I will wait until this settles a little so it does not trickle over. Sorry Kaede

flying fig said...

NO JR - PLEASE do not turn this over to Dena or any other person who wishes to carry on any campaign. I wish we could turn this back into showing/training/horsemanship gripes and concerns. Dena and SFTS both have their own blog(s) where they can howl at each other to their heart's content.

>>Fig this is what I mean. You say one thing and then come with another.
How would a newbie? Wow. Presume much?<<


Wow. How was what I said " saying one thing and then coming with another"? I see you doing that - most recently, lecturing about responding to SFTS and then merrily doing so anyway... but whatever.

There is no need to always be on the attack, finding fault and sneering at what others say.

Newbies - with new Blogger SNs as of this month or last month - who just happen to suddenly show up here specifically to engage and continue what has become a very tiresome little war... tend to make anyone with half a brain a bit suspicious... and very weary of this little game that is being played.

JR - could we start a new entry about obnoxious trainers? I have a good tale about a snotty hunter/jumper coach and his equally self-absorbed students...

horspoor said...

This SFTS/Dena deal is out of hand. I don't understand. They are almost a country apart. The he said/she said bullshit is old.

I DON'T CARE!

I'm beginning to think both of you are batshit crazy. There are more productive things to do with your time.

SFTS...deal with your stuff. Don't bring it here. Get your house in order. Make amends where you need to. Get on with your life.

Dena...you are not some avenging angel sent to right the wrongs of the world. Do what is in front of you. There is plenty in your neighborhood I'm sure that could do with your input and assistance. Help somebody you can see...someone you can walk up to give a hug and help on their path. Bumper sticker I like: Think globally, act locally.

Okay, now you can both be pissed at me. Work out. Have at it. I'll be the bad guy, big meanie. We can all sort it out in therapy later.

Going to lunch, see ya.

flying fig said...

*gives HP a standing ovation and joins her on the meanie couch*

SFTS said...

Fig, I could not blame JR if he wants to rid himself of this blog if for no other reason than to avoid any legal ramifications which may arise from the ownership of a place where so many battles are fought. I believe his intentions were honorable, as the initial intent was to draw Dena out to have her shitfests with others come here as opposed to muddying up FHOTD and his training blog, but she has gotten so out of control that.....well, you know.

JR has tried ~ unsuccessfully because of Dena, her alters and her twisted friends ~ to make this a blog about other horse related gripes, but Dena/alters/friends continue to make it all about me, to the detriment of all other topics. Now Dena is begging for JR to hand her the reins here, so to speak, so that she can continue her campaign as you note above.

Btw, my blog is a nice place to have fun, talk horses and generally enjoy learning from each other. :) No one brings garbage there, not only because it's not allowed, but because people are respectful and engage in intelligent conversation as opposed to bashing. Dena can do with her own blogs whatever she wishes, though no decent poster will go there, only her friends and those who support her rabid attacks on anyone who does not agree with her.

>>> "Newbies - with new Blogger SNs as of this month or last month - who just happen to suddenly show up here specifically to engage and continue what has become a very tiresome little war... tend to make anyone with half a brain a bit suspicious... and very weary of this little game that is being played." <<<

Indeed.

It becomes even more tiresome to my family and I when information is being passed amongst a select few individuals simply in an effort to flame and defame me.

However, all one must do is put two and two together (Dena + my three "enemies" = what you see here) in order to come to a conclusion.

HP, I am not in any way, shape or form mad/pissed off at you, because you have expressed what most here feel. NO ONE CARES. Except Dena, and her newfound friends from my neighborhood and the surrounding area.

You're right, we do live many hundreds of miles away, from Minnesota to California, and one really must ask why this would matter so much to Dena. It really is a puzzlement.

For the record, I am dealing with things on my end. :) Getting my house in order (we have another Court date upcoming this month to get moving on all the wrongs these people have committed against us) and so forth. We have no "amends" to make. Those that were necessary have already been made. And as you may have noticed, once again, *I* didn't bring any of this most recent round of BS here!! Dena and Mr/Mrs Tally (aka "TheTruth" Blogger identity) did.

I don't think either of you, HP or Fig are "meanies" whatsoever. Just tired of the BS continually brought here by Dena and her friends. Join the crowd! But be prepared for attacks from Dena. It is her M.O., you know. *Sigh*

horspoor said...

Don't under estimate Dena, or her self control.

PrairieFarmer said...

I've been checking in on this now and then, just to see if...it...is...still...going........oooonnnnnn....!
And yep. Don't have much to say because, really, what can you say? Those that need to hear seem to have earmuffs on to all but their own blah, blah, blah anyways (and when I say "those" I am not refering to just the 2 arch-enemies but also those who seem obsessed with pointing out all the inherent flaws of the 2 arch-enemies...Really, in the eyes of the neutral reader you become just as ridiculous, crazy and annoying as the ones you constantly attack!).
Horspor - you're great. I'd see you in therapy anyday!
JR - I'd love to see a new topic, it is fun to have a "rant" place when it can be something other than a she said-she said comment contest. Although, gee, can we get this one to 1000 comments???? Here, let me try -
How much traffic does a blog need to attract advertisers? Although who would advertise on this one? Midol? Valium? Ambien? Fast-typists Club?
Back to life now, leaving insane fantasy world behind!

SFTS said...

Are you kidding me?? Dena has no self control. She has proven that over, and over, and over again. She attacks whenever, wherever and whomever she sees fit, if someone disagrees with her.

Underestimate? No worries about that. Once I overestimated her, by actually believing her lies and nonsense, and before that by actually being supportive of her way back when. Never again.

PF, LOL. How true...this really is pretty amazing, isn't it? But in all honesty, how many folks directly involved (well, in the bashing) have ever looked at this entire mess objectively, or even want to? None of them. They're not remotely capable.

Maybe this blog should be re-named "Dena's Insane Fantasy Life". It does fit, after all. ;)

JohnieRotten said...

PF

I am working on a new post so give a little bit so I can finish. I have just been pretty busy..


1000 HMMMMMMMMM!

JohnieRotten said...

SFTS

Maybe people do not want to look at it objectively. Maybe they are the point they do not want to look at it period!

PrairieFarmer said...

JR -
Ya know, I wouldn't worry about it too much anyways. Not like you have better things to do, I would imagine????
SFTS - (Sigh....)

SFTS said...

You couldn't be more right there, JR. On both counts!

PF, I know how you feel........

JohnieRotten said...

PF

I just need to get things ready so we can sell this place and move.

It is a 110 here today and the horses are spontaneously bursting into flames

horspoor said...

SFTS

I think Dena will surprise you.

horspoor said...

And I hope it is in a good way.

Just saying (Dena). lol

SFTS said...

Oh, she is full of surprises for sure! :-/

I've tried until I just can't try anymore, you know? She takes you on such a roller coaster that even I'm starting to get motion sickness...that just isn't known to happen.

But I can still hold out hope, I suppose, that you're right.

tbkisser said...

JR - Ohio has some beautiful horse farms, and we could sure as hell use a trainer who thinks of his clients and horses and not how big his horse trailer is. The temperature has not hit 90 here all summer(central ohio)but that is supposed to change Sunday, damn.....

tbkisser said...

beautiful snow in the winter, wait until the twins see that for the first time.

flying fig said...

>>Really, in the eyes of the neutral reader you become just as ridiculous, crazy and annoying as the ones you constantly attack!<<

Just as? I'll respectfully disagree ;- ) but that aside, fair enough... and point taken. It is hard to practice ignore when one comes from a background where silence equalled approval - and you had to be outspoken. I'll work on it. :-)

JR - the heat wave has crumbled here... and today it is slightly overcast and a lovely, cool 68 degrees. The horses are kicking up their heels and celebrating..

I was going to change the subject and post about ignorant and rude trainers who encourage their students to be the same - but since you are working on a new topic, I'll save it!

tbkisser said...

Forget it JR, I'm moving to wherever FF is?

SFTS said...

I guess we're lucky in this part of the Desert, because we get snow in the Winter. :) (shudders remembering last December and the great 2 1/2 feet of white stuff that fell on us)...that is one thing I don't look forward to, the snow. But we have a true four seasons here, which is really cool!

flying fig wrote:
It is hard to practice ignore when one comes from a background where silence equalled approval - and you had to be outspoken.
- - - - - - - -

BINGO!!

JohnieRotten said...

Kid

I am thinking that 68 degrees sounds really nice about now.

Where do you live Fig?

I am combining your post idea with Kaedes becuase it goes along the same lines.

tbkisser said...

If I had my choice, I'd move to Monterey, CA, absolutely beautiful!

JohnieRotten said...

Hell Kid

If I hady choice I would move to Disneyland.

Anonymous said...

JR,

Norcal! Especially if you're somewhere that gets the delta breeze. It can be 110 during the day, but cool down into the 60s at night, so you can sleep with all the windows open!

Property can be pricey, but if you don't mind being a ways from town (and don't need to commute) it gets cheaper.

And we have genuine seasons! No snow in the winter in the valley, nice spring and fall. The fog does suck in the winter, but makes for kind of cool horse photos!

charlienchico said...

JR- You couldn't afford to eat at Disneyland. Well, maybe YOU can, I sure couldn't.

charlienchico said...

NHM- I tried the Norcal pitch already, didn't hear much. Really JR and CNJ if you go for the PNW you'll get drizzle and rain all the time.

tbkisser said...

NHM-it ain't a season without the snow. I have a niece and nephew in San Jose and I cannot get over the different cities with the different climates. One day we drove from Monterey which was in the low 70's in July thru San Jose, high 80's to San Francisco which was in the low 70's. We were there for 2 weeks and I loved it.

Didn't get to go to Disneyland, but have been to Disneyworld at least 8 times.

PrairieFarmer said...

JR - Pretty sure FF is in the PacNW somewhere...
Especially since 68 degrees is our current high, predicted for the week - ah bliss!
And seriously - the whole rain thing in the Pacific NW all depends on where you live (i.e. by the Olympics, i.e. the RAINFOREST...yes, it is very rainy), but where I live - we get 18 to 22 inches of rain a year. That's not much! Not to mention July through September we typically get hardly any rain. This summer - hardly anything since first of May! Even Seattle gets what, 33 inches of rain? Lots of places - including Seattle - get more! We just tend to have more "grey" days and more days of light rain versus downpours. A nice cool misting, as far as I'm concerned!

flying fig said...

I love those grey, light drizzle days, PF. Everything smells and feels so... green. Unlike right now - the pastures are brown and shrivelled and the woods are tinder-dry. But did you hear - RAIN on Sunday??!!! *happy dance* And yes, I am up here in the PNW/Puget Sound with you!

JR- we get enough snow (too much this past year) to have actual winter if you insist on that white stuff.... but usually winter is wet and green...

Anonymous said...

Kid,

I lived in Nebraska for a couple of years, and don't care if I ever see snow again!

Of course back there it's freezing rain, sleet, and every other unpleasant variation of snow you can think of rather than nice fluffy Tahoe snow!

Yeah, the differing climates are strange. My parents live about an hour and 1/2 south of me, and get NO delta breeze, and it's much hotter there!

JR, if you live move to Norcal, you MUST have a swimming pool!

I understand the Redding area is reasonably priced, horse friendly, and beautiful. But it stays HOT at night.

JohnieRotten said...

CnC

I was not ignoring you about NorCal. We just do not know where we want to go. But wherever it is there needs to be horses

And I want there to be rain, I hate this brown crap dead crap all over the place.

Anonymous said...

JR,

With rain, comes MUD. Make sure you see the property after a rain, because the different soil types drain very differently!

Where I board, it gets muddy, but dries out decently within a couple of days. One place I looked at (just a few miles away) had standing water everywhere a week after the last rain!

joanna said...

JR- Please please please move to central OH. You'll have a loyal client, plus one of my friends has a really cute Connemara/TB cross that really needs some training. We have all sorts of disciplines going on. You name it, we got it.

*on knees begging*

«Oldest ‹Older   401 – 600 of 1071   Newer› Newest»