Tuesday, August 11, 2009

What has happened to the horse industry?

I am dealing with a nightmare right now, that I think can benefit your blog readers on the training blog by opening their eyes to what can happen in this type of situation. I will say it might get very ugly.

I quit my job officially June 16th, but in doing so gave over three weeks notice. I was working for the ranch trainer as his assistant, as well as the acting assistant manager of the boarding side of the business, and was doing very well in both those roles. The BO/boss was the woman that I got my horse from. I started a free lease on her early last year, and in October, she gave me the horse outright, with a signed bill of sale/transfer of ownership from her name to mine.

Almost immediately after I gave my notice that I would be leaving the job, things got shakey between us, due to several misunderstandings about what I was still responsible for around the barn. She would assume I knew I was responsible for task A, but would never actually tell me, and I would do tasks B and C instead, leaving task A undone. She'd get mad, we'd get it straightened out, then a few days later it would repeat. The other thing that was happening was that I would go to do Tasks A, B, C and find they were already done. She hired a girl to clean the stalls, which I was supposed to do still till today, behind my back, and didn't tell me she was doing it. So after my Monday off, Tuesday am I showed up to clean the stalls (I was no longer on a set time schedule at that point) and found someone else she was paying...already doing it. This happened with several other tasks as well, until finally I was just feeding the horses at night and nothing else.

During this time there were discussions between us about moving my horse out. I told her two weeks ago *mid-July* that I had found a place to move her, and would be moving her out. I had been receiving board in exchange for part of my pay. $350 a month, for the last 14 months. As I am not on a contract basis with her for board, save the verbal arrangements that had been broken time and time again, I was under no obligation to give her a full 30 day notice. I was unable to move her until the 31st into the new place, so in the meantime I paid in full (cash) for Augusts board, and since board there was just the stall, (self service), I bought hay, pellets, and sawdust bags amongst other things. I emailed her with the day I was moving her out, and that was that... I thought.
I was supposed to move her today.

Yesterday, she sent me an email saying that I was no longer her owner, and that I no longer had permission to move the horse off of the property. In doing so I would be trespassing. Apparently she has the ability to reneg on a legal bill of sale all by herself. Her reasons were that I had not 'shown up for work' the last week and a half, and was not 'financially responsible' for the care of the horse. (she had already, without informing me I was no longer needed, hired someone else to take care of the horses, and when I showed up to do the stuff that had already been done, I left without seeing anyone around. This is what she means by 'not showing up', because if she didn't see me, I wasn't there.)
Her reasons as listed included a vet bill I am paying off (it was several hundred dollars from last year that I have a payment plan on, agreed on by me and the vet himself) thats really none of her business; supposedly I was paying the farrier $20 at a time to shoe her ... which was entirely not true ... he charges much more than that and had I not been paying the full amount each time he WOULDN'T COME BACK (DUH!), again not her business; and threw back in my face what the judge in the custody case regarding my kids said to me about how I should seriously 'reconsider horse ownership at this time' not because of my finances, but her own bias that 'horses are big scary dangerous unpredictable animals not suitable for kids to be around'. AGAIN, none of her business.

I called Police Dept. for advice, in nutshell they say don't go on property without her permission, and that its a civil matter, have to go to court to get horse back. Great. I'm told this by several others as well. That I need to set up an appointment to get my saddle, grooming supplies, halter, etc. so nobody misunderstands why I'm there.

So, after the shock of being told all that, I find out from a friend whom I thought I could trust, and boards her horse there also, that boss had sent an email blast to all the other boarders sans me, saying if anyone sees me show up to take the horse to call her immediately. So, now everyone else is involved as well. Friend and I have a long conversation about it, and she promises me she will keep it confidential.

This morning, I check my email about noon for the first time, and theres another email from boss saying that she knows she's been getting my messages because she and my friend were talking and that I can contact her if I want to work something out in writing about me leaving her there, and being able to ride her there. My friend, when asked if she mentioned anything we discussed to boss, denied everything and claimed not to know whats going on. I can't tell if she's lying or not, but I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust anyone related to that ranch right now because anything I say might get back to boss and be used against me. So, I loose a great friend over this as well.

Now, this mare was used for most of her hard life as a surrogate broodmare or 'reset' mare, and how boss lady acquired her was exactly that way. She embryo transfered from another mare she owned years ago into (my horse) and shipped her from Florida to here. Once the foal was born, she was supposed to be shipped back, but boss kept her instead, and supposedly bought her from the vet facility. They claimed last august, when I tried to get her records, that the mare had not been paid for, and needed to either be paid for or sent back. I never followed up on that for fear that I wasn't supposed to know that information and never mentioned it to boss. To this day, I still don't know if boss ever paid her off. Then a few months ago, she asked me if she could use (my horse) again for that very purpose next year to breed her mare that colicked two weeks after her last foal was born, and almost died from it. She is so desperate to get another baby out of this other mare, that I really believe she is trying to keep (my horse) on the property for that reason. But I have no proof of that.
So I'm stuck canceling my transport with less than 24 hours notice (out the deposit there), have to go to the barn I was moving her to and tell them whats going on and ask for a refund, so they can open the stall back up, and I'm sitting on all the supplies I just bought and now can't use.
I have no other choice but to either sue for the horse itself back, or for the 14 months of board pay I worked off back because she never intended for the horse to leave the property. At the $350 per month cost, thats almost $5000. The horse is worth maybe $500 on open market, probably much less because she's slightly lame in 2 legs, has a club foot, and is not registered. And I have a signed and legal bill of sale! (for the record, I knew from the beginning that she would never be a lifetime riding horse. she would in the next 5 years or so, need to be retired from riding and put out to pasture, or given a non riding job. I was ok with this, and was starting to plan for it.)
I guess my intent on sending this is so maybe you can post this as a 'beware' type story, even though nobody would have seen this coming. By the way, this woman and her husband own two very profitable car dealerships and are quite active in the charities locally. My boyfriend suggested that I take this to the news media, with the slant that this woman is so generous as to spend thousands of their personal money to help those less fortunate but months after gifting a horse to someone close to her, with a legal bill of sale included, refuses to let the horse off the property when the new owner chooses to move her because of selfish personal reasons? HMMM. Think that might get some attention?
Anyways, I am just disgusted at the way this has all turned out. And I know others that read your blog may have had similar experiences, and I'd really like to know what happened, how it was resolved. I think if I go to court and sue for the full $5000, she won't pay that if it was her choice, she'd rather let the horse go, but in truth I am starting to wonder if I wouldn't be better off with the money, and go to the next Horsebreakers auction and pick up a gelding there..... but in truth my heart lies with her, problems and all, and It would be very difficult to let her go.
Thanks JR for reading this.

----------------------------------

I have always taken a lot of pride in being an honest trainer and taking the utmost care of my clients. If I tell you I am going to do something, I do it and there is no questions asked.

I find this kind of crap in the horse industry alarming.

There seems to be a level of dishonesty that is in this industry that goes above anything else, primarily because there is no regulation.

But what do you do when you are in a situation like this?

It is important that you do get a written contract when buying a horse from any trainer of owner. No matter what!!!!!!!

I advise people, never enter into a free lease. They rarely work out.

When you go to the horse show and there are trainers there offering to sell you a horse that has won everything at the show, and the trainer tells you that the horse has won multiple Championships. Do not take his/her word for it, check the horses show record for yourself.

If the trainer/owner offers a vet check, get it, but use your own veterinarian, not the sellers!

If the seller tells you that you have to use his vet, then walk away.

Never, and I repeat never make an arrangement in which you are going work off the payments of the horse. If you work for the owner, let them pay you and then you write a check as a payment for the horse.

One of my neighbors was involved in a deal in which they were buying a horse from someone and working off the payments. The seller decided that she was not happy with the arrangement and went to the buyers house in the middle of the night and took the horse back. The buyer reported the horse stolen the next morning and now the seller is facing felony charges.

Do you see where I am going with this?

You absolutely have to protect yourself when buying a horse. There is absolutely no reason to take any risks.

The horse business is way too small. I hear about this crap all of the time and I start to question the integrity of horse people more and more. I know there are really honest horsemen/women out there that care about their reputations, but the bad ones seem to be popping their heads up more and more lately.

And that pisses me off!

Rant over!



366 comments:

1 – 200 of 366   Newer›   Newest»
Kallista said...

Wow. It's hard to even know what to say here. I can't imagine that with horses being considered property that someone keeping your property (with a bill of sale) that the cops would not go with you to collect said property. I have a friend who had a similar thing happen, horses were taken from her barn, she tracked them down and has been trying to get them back one by one, no help from the cops, local DAs or anyone else. Very sad.

Cut-N-Jump said...

Contracts are your friend! They keep everyone honest and on the same page.

The problem I find with partnerships and going in together on anything is that one person always seems to use and abuse things while the other person gets stuck paying for everything when they get handed all the broken pieces.

The other problem is if you need to sell- it's not exactly yours and yours alone to make that decision.

Kaede said...

I guess it is the same in any industry: Cars, wedding cakes, horses or homes. You can try to nail every detail down, but if someone wants to renege on a deal.... what can you do to prevent them? The "going to court" all happens after the deal has collapsed. That will be expensive and time consuming no matter who "wins".
When I was fighting for my son's right to attend "regular" public school the best bit of advice I ever got from our lawyers was "Nothing is EVER off the record" Note who is talking, what they said, who else was present and make them sign the paper that they agree that what was said, was said. Make a copy (copiers are everywhere in schools) and give it to them. Keep your files neat and up to date.
I believe this is another instance of the 20/80 rule. 20 % of the people will cause 80% of the problems.

horspoor said...

Get it in writing. Get a vet check. Have a legal bill of sale. If they can't locate the papers, walk away. Ride the horse. If the horse is tacked up, and looks like it has already been worked before you get there...walk away. Tough when you are working for the seller though.

horspoor said...

Okay, another pet peeve...trainers that put their students into too much horse. Advise buying horses that are too much horse, and will require regular work from the trainer, in order for the student to be able to manage the horse.

SFTS said...

Very sad situation, and unfortunately this happens all too often.

Not unlike the saying, do not enter into any business relationship of any kind with a friend, because your friendship likely will not survive the business relationship.

I have found this to be true on a couple of occasions sadly enough, though I was fortunate that I have been able to rebuild those friendships. I do stay away from business relationships with certain folks.

Definitely get EVERYTHING in writing, no matter what. I am usually a stickler for all things paperwork oriented (being the Virgo that I am), but sometimes I let that sort of thing slide for a friend. Bad idea, big mistake, for even those you may consider your friend today may not always be your friend.

Hard lessons to learn for sure.

Kaede said...

Does anybody else have a hard time doing what they know they should do?
I really like people and I want to please them. It is just not natural for me to say "Put it in writing and get back to me" I do it, but I feel as awkward as a giraffe in high heels when I'm (gently)insisting on a contract.
Any more I bring my Dear Daughter #3's St Bernard with me to any negotiations that are likely to get difficult. I like to hold them in outdoor cafe's over pastries and coffee. The St. Bernard puts his head on the table and drools while looking soulfully at you. I think it is the drool that speeds up these negotiation.

endure_2_the_end said...

"...you can post this as a 'beware' type story, even though nobody would have seen this coming"
Seriously? Sorry to say this, but when I read this tale of woe, all I could think was "She was freakin ASKING for problems!" I mean, let's review the mistakes she made:
1. Free lease, no written contract
2. Free horse, bill of sale/contract not notarized
3. Responsibilities of employment not written and signed by both parties
4. Board in exchange for pay, no contract
I mean, seriously, in what fantasy world could a situation like this NOT go horribly awry? And all for a mare that she admits isn't even going to be rideable in a few years? Weird. I sincerely hope she doesn't take this to court, as it would be a massive waste of time for everyone involved. There is NO WAY w/o written contracts & a notarized bill of sale that she is going to get either the horse or any money.
Also, WRT the cops: yes, horses are property, but in this case the dispute is over the contract & ownership of the horse. I.e., you're looking at a civil suit for breach of contract, not a criminal action for theft. If the contract were not under dispute (if the writer were the undisputed owner), then it would be theft.
JR seems to see the tale of this incident as an example of the unscrupulous/dishonest practices of some people in the horse industry. Instead, I see yet another example of the naivete and inability to function of others: "Well see heer I hav this problm wit ma lame horse an this laydee where we didn't rite nuthin daown and now she's got ma horse an ma saddle an everythang, and I'ma losin my deposit on the trayler an the new barn and I ain't got no money (even tho I was gettin a horse) an the court might be takin my kids an my boyfren...." Blah blah blah WOW time to go on Jerry Springer! This is why I chose not to go to law school - in civil practice, unless you work in a silk-stocking firm, you deal with this level of crazy. A lot.

Kallista said...

Gosh, I think that is a being a little harsh to the owner. She probably didn't know. She worked with someone who seemed honest, and although I too, am surprised she would want a horse that was going to be shortly unrideable, it was her choice to take it and give it a good home. What I think is unconscionable is that the BO screwed her. She has a bill of sale. She worked for that horse. And most people are pretty darn honest, it's the ones that aren't that cause the problems. She probably should have done things differently and will certainly do so, I feel, in the future. Please, let's not dissolve into making someone be a stupid idiot as they did so often on FHOTD. She is an innocent party who learned a lesson the hard way. I cringe when I hear these kinds of stories but I also learn from them.
Having said that, I have a business that I have run for 26 years. I have only been screwed a handful of times. I had a lady here two weeks ago. Whipped out her charge card and wanted to charge it. I don't take that. Panicked look. She is 1,000 miles from home and I have her dog. Is she gonna screw me? The panicked look was all I needed to see. I gave her the dog, a business card with the amount written on the back and told her to mail me a check. I gave her a pointed look and said "I've only been screwed a handful of times over the years and I know you aren't going to do that to me". I got the check the other day. I do believe that most people want to be inheritely honest.
Another thing the horse owner might want to do is contact the employment commission. This was her pay. Now it's being withheld. She needs to document her hours from her calendar as much as she can and tell them she charges 10.00 an hour for the work she did and the BO agreed to take it out in trade. Let them go after the BO.

autumnblaze said...

e2e - I, personally, have always been a trusting person. I know I have a lot of integrity, am brutally honest and like to believe people are good. Oh boy have I been screwed. However, still, I do not enter into everything with every person on high alert, usually I assume they are a human being and will act as such. I think the author of this snipit was entering into something in good faith. True, she should have gotten MORE of it in writing. It is/was a VERY serious business engagement. I don't think it's fair to attack her infering she's some hill-billy idiot that can't speak english and has 'an inablility to function'. I think she simply trusted someone she should't have with a very big responsibility to her - she won't do it again.

Her 'friend' and boss was what I refer to as a 'horse friend'. There as long as it's benficial to her and a totally different person once the tables turn. I don't understand people who are that way. I do avoid them, I have gotten better at spotting them. I guess that's the benefit of learning from yours and others mistakes and time. It's not just the horseworld in which these things happen. Though because there are more emotions attached to the 'merchandise' I think things get more heated. Even if she had all the properly signed documentation if this woman wanted to pull something to make this difficult, she would. It's the nature of some people. All that paperwork is just for people with a concience anyways. Knowing there's a recourse if they don't do what they agreed. Some people don't care about recourse. It's an unfortunate part of society. Especially in a 'world' as small as the horse world. The good thing about that is, word does usually get out and there are good people. And Karma is a bitch.

autumnblaze said...

Oh and as Kallista said, usually, most people do want to do the right thing. I do believe that to be true as well.

PrairieFarmer said...

Sad story. I'm notoriously bad for "doing things on a handshake." So far I haven't been screwed over on anything really, but it probably helps that I live in a small town (i.e. EVERYTHING gets around) and also that my husband is an attorney! LOL (Although I deliberately do not abuse that, hubby would be pissed for sure afterall his reputation is at stake as well, but it is nice to just casually mention to certain people...).
But, I do believe that people want to be inherently good. I tend to go for a "laying it all out there" scenario. This has worked pretty well with me in my business both for getting AWESOME employees (basically my job interview technique involves me telling them all my worst traits, failings, etc...and asking them if they can deal with that!) and in working with sales. Honesty has always served me well, at least so far!
And to be honest (there I go with that word again), I would hate that I would ever get so paranoid that I would assume the worst (instead of the best) of every person I meet. I think that sounds like a sucky way to go through life. Back to work now!

BringItOn said...

Thank goodness a new post. I've been following along on the previous comments. Saw no need to go there. Even for sport.

Mmm-kay e2e may sound a bit harsh but gets directly to the point. Is what the BO did acceptable? Not a terribly good business practice. But it may be likely she actually was looking out for the best interest of this horse.

Several things jumped out at me.
1-The buyer was fully aware that the previous owners had not been paid for this mare. She was in direct contact with the vet station that the mare came from and was told that the mare had not been paid for. Ummm-hello any alarm bells going off there? But she was willing to close her mind to that and still take the mare. In a court of law-should the previous owners decide to sue for the mare back, she would knowingly have received stolen property and could be charged accordingly. She would still have lost the mare.

2-A judge had warned against horse ownership at this time. I don't know, but most likely the reason was due to finances. Obviously, the judge knew that she worked at an equine facility and I rather doubt it was because the judge was scared of horses or what might happen to the kids being in proximity to them.

3-Things started to get weird before she was even gone. Again, alarm bells anyone?

The equine industry is notorious for crooks, shysters and those more than willing to take advantage of others. From the highest echelons to the lowly local horsetrader. It hasn't changed much. What has changed more than anything is the type of people who think they NEED a horse. They blithely walk into situations thinking that horsepeople are going to take care of them. They let their emotions get in the way. They seem to forget that they are responsible in any way for making a good business-like decision. $5,000 invested in a $500 horse?

Most likely the best case this person has is to sue for wages. Forget the horse. It wasn't paid for in the first place. That could actually become her defense.

horspoor said...

It is easy to believe somebody you work with everyday. Especially an authority figure.

I've been taken. I'll probably be taken again.

However, they wont take me again. It is doubtful I will ever do anything for them again. I will probably tell farriers, hay dealers, breeders, and other trainers to get the money first. I wont elaborate...but they all know what it means. And most will do the same for me.

Even if you have a contract, you have to be willing to enforce the contract. Some people aren't up to that kind of confrontation.

There have been times where I just thought screw it, not worth the hassle and walked away. I'm always amazed when these people come back and want me to do something for them, or need help. You'd be surprised how often they do come back. I don't know if they think I've forgotten? That I'm an easy mark because I let it go once? Foolish people.

autumnblaze said...

BIO - You do make a good point. Actually the fact the mare hadn't been paid for was a red flag for me too. I would have, personally, at LEAST asked the BO about that issue when I found out about it.

bhm said...

If you have a bill of sale get a court order through a small claims court. It doesn't cost anything. Just have all you records with you. Make sure that you document your other personal possessions such as tack and brushes etc. You can use your credit card records. The judge will order your property be returned and set a date for you to collect your things. Make sure that you document the work that you've done and that you don't owe her any time or reimbursement for wages.

Kaede said...

This post had me thinking about the Medoff case. Lots of intelligent people trusting a good reputation. On closer look Medoff's reputation was a bit too good. No investment manager gets that good of a result without doing something shady. But... it worked to some peoples advantage and the rest hoped it would work to their advantage too. We can point fingers and say "The really ignorant shouldn't have been investing" but that doesn't help them now. I feel that kind of statement only serves to make the people who were knowledgeable enough not to invest feel better.
This poor girl has neither her horse or her pay.
As to the judge, unhappy family members (doesn't necessarily have to be an ex, grandparents of the ex will do just fine or parents/siblings when things are really ugly) can make all sorts of weird claims about what is "dangerous" to a child.
I keep large snakes. I had my sister in law tell her family that I was unfit to care for my mother in law (she had Alzheimer's disease) because my snakes were dangerous. My snakes are kept in locked aquariums. Sort of what you would see in a zoo. My parrot is more dangerous than my snakes. He bites (hard!) the snakes don't. "I couldn't win against prejudice so my MIL left my house (she had lived with me and the snakes for 3 years. It took that long before one of the other family members looked in on us) for a continuing care facility.
I was never sure if my MIL knew about my snakes. She never mentioned them.

Kaede said...

By the by large snakes make lousy pets but wonderful artworks.
Here is an example of how lovely a vivarium can be. Just make sure the vivarium fits the biosphere of the snake.

JohnieRotten said...

I hate to admit it, but in reality I think both parties did play an equal part in this. Knowing who you are delong with is so important. And yes iknow this happens in all industries but the fact that it happens in mine really does bother me.

I have had checks bounce on me and I was never able to recover some of those. I have had people nor paye and come do midnight move outs with their horses and when you try to collect it is a real pain in the ass.

But when you are buying a horse always make sure there is a paper trail. And I do agree that this person should seek employment compensation for this.

endure_2_the_end said...

Kallista-
I take your point about not attacking the victim - however, in this case, by her own admission, the author of the email was certainly NOT an "innocent victim". As BIO points out, she was perfectly willing to take over ownership of a horse she KNEW didn't belong to the person who was 'selling' it to her. And then you're saying she must have thought the BO "seemed honest"? Um, really?
There is NO EXCUSE for entering into any kind of employment w/o a valid contract. I bet she was working 'under the table' and not paying tax. Also NOT SMART.
I feel sorry for her that she'll now have to go to small claims and probably deal w a lot of bad noise from everyone in the barn that she knows to get it sorted out. But really, she could have avoided all of it w a little common sense. Instead, she willfully ignored signs that the BO was less than up front, willingly worked for free ($5000 worth of work for a horse she KNEW was only worth ~$500) for over a year w/o an contract (for a job that was her sole source of support! Only people w money to burn can afford to be so careless w it...), and she's taking on a luxury possession (the horse) on which she can't afford to readily pay the bills (re: vet bill) when she has kids she should probably be using her money to support & of whom she is trying to retain custody (yet is going against what the judge in the case recommends). Not smart. I agree w JR's latest - both parties are at fault in this matter.

Dena said...

JR I posted pics of a fat pony that might cause CnJ to get that gleam in her eye.

As to this topic? It sucks what happened. I am sure the woman was already on her way to bonded by the time she found out the horse wasn't paid for.

A fair portion of the folks in the horse industry are pretty self-serving.
And charming.
They couldn't get near your wallet if they weren't.

To the person that had so much to say about this woman going against the judge.

Give it a rest.

Maybe she does not have health insurance. And $350 a month is a hell of a lot cheaper than traditional therapy.

catpoop sez enuff said...

If the barn owner "sold" this mare to the person in question and gave a written bill of sale, isn't it the BO's responsibility to settle whatever unpaid bill she has with the previous vet? The vet would sue for the amount owed... doubtful they would repossess the horse.

What a heartbreaking situation. I can't imagine having to give up an animal I loved due to a shitty circumstance like this.

CharlesCityCat said...

I have never been in this situation or anything even close.

Really sad commentary of how people can be.

GoLightly said...

Very sad, but I've asked myself that title question for a lot of years.
Why?

OT, but anyone horsey live in or near Thornbury, Ontario CANADA??

My dad just let me know, his cousins who have a horse farm around there, had three boarders abandon their horses.
More free horses to ride. I had to explain that I just couldn't be driving 6 more hours on the weekend. Do enough commuting through the week.
Why are these horses NEVER near Toronto?

because Toronto, sucks. Great for charming trolls, not so great for human beans.

Good luck to those poor abandoned horses.
What could the owners be thinking?

"A fair portion of the folks in the horse industry are pretty self-serving.
And charming.
They couldn't get near your wallet if they weren't."

Ain't that the truth.

joanna said...

Wouldn't be possible to pay the vet facility for the mare, get a notarized bill of sale from them, then go get the horse? What can the BO say? She didn't pay for the horse in the first place. At most she can demand back board. However, if the writer didn't "own" the horse until a few days before (as per the date on the bill of sale), who can the BO go after for board? Certainly not the vet facility.

kestrel said...

Harsh lesson there. Ouch! Get it in writing, notarize bills of sale, keep it professional. Especially when working for friends! There are some great barns in my area, but there are several that screw their help over royally. Run when you see the headlights coming, not after the train flattens you...

Dena said...

joanna that is a very good possibility. And it would serve the BO right.
If the BO has not paid for the horse chances are the lab or whatever would be thrilled to be paid by someone.

Kestrel dead on. As usual.

GoLightly said...

Agree, or disagree?
"Trojan picks a lot on trainers' equitation whereas I think it's fine for certain flaws to exist and that it's nearly impossible to maintain beautiful equitation riding greenies all day. I don't want to see a trainer with shitty hands or pivoting on their knee and pitching forward over fences, but things like feet too far forward or hunchy shoulders are a non-issue to me."


Agree, or disagree?
"The real truth is, that for a general purpose horse, the trainer doesn't NEED to have a truly independent seat, or perfect hands, or very subtle cues. In fact, the greener the horse, the LOUDER the cues, initially. Kind of like talking to a toddler, short, clear, loud words. You don't add subtlety until much later."

Those are some of the attitudes amongst so-called horse people.

The training standards have fallen to abysmal levels.

What has happened to the horse industry?
People.
The Wal-Mart mentality has pervaded every facet of our lives. Buy him cheapest, learn to ride him quickest.

Learning should never stop.
It's too bad that low standards seem to be the acceptable normal.
The top quote is taken from someone who has given lessons.

To Horses, with correct training, and riders that actually care enough ABOUT THE HORSE to want to learn to ride well.

irrelevant, and out..

SFTS said...

In my experience, trainers can be some of the worst riders out there. Something I have been saying for many years, there are good riders who can't train a horse to save their lives, and there are good trainers (i.e., those who really are skilled at getting the best out of a horse) who look like a sack of rotten potatoes sitting on a horse. But in order to effectively train a horse, you've got to be able to effectively ride the horse first.

>>> "It's nearly impossible to maintain beautiful equitation riding greenies all day." <<<

Not necessarily. Had the OP said "perfect" equitation, I'd have to agree. But a trainer can also be a "beautiful" rider while schooling green horses, without a doubt. Not that all are, but they're out there.

>>> "The real truth is, that for a general purpose horse, the trainer doesn't NEED to have a truly independent seat, or perfect hands, or very subtle cues." <<<

WTF? I definitely disagree with this. Actually, the whole quote. And folks wonder why there is such a negative perception of some 'trainers' out there. *shakes head*

CharlesCityCat said...

GL:

You know the website that I have directed you to on Irish Sporthorses, Acorn Hill Farm? Well, Robin, even though training greenies, always maintained her equitation skills. Her nickname was Janie Equitation. The woman could ride just as well without stirrups (to include jumping) as she could with. Now this was when she rode hunters, not the jumpers she has now.

I also had a trainer, Don, who had a superb seat, leg and hands. He did sometimes hunch his shoulders a bit, but he wasn't riding in eq divisions anyway.

Actually, I could name some more.

So what the first commentor you mentioned said, well, ignorance is bliss I guess.


On the second commentor, that is probably one of the most uninformed and frankly stupid things I have heard as far as training in a very long time. Pretty much tells you the level of riding that person is at.

CharlesCityCat said...

GL:

I also would like to mention something I am confused about. The first individual you discussed made a comment elsewhere that she used to tell her students that you post from the knee. Wouldn't this promote pinching?

joanna said...

CCC- What was the last name of your trainer with the hunched shoulders? I had one named Don, too. He could get anything out of a horse, and they all seemed to trust him so much.

joanna said...

No, you don't post from your knee, it does promote pinching, as well as posting to high and to stiff. I find when I post, I actually use my whole leg. I get a softer yet firmer feel.

CharlesCityCat said...

johanna:

The trainer was Don Sheehan. I believe he is in Southern Pines, NC.


I agree with you on how you post.

joanna said...

Nope, different Don. Mine was Don Patterson.

I look at it like this-

Post from knee= pinched knee= stiff ankles= top heavy= splat.

Your leg needs to be flexible to go around the horse. You know, like Sally Swift says- the roots of a tree.

I think a lot of trainers forget, and therefore don't teach their students, that riding is like dancing. You need to get into the rythm of your partner. To feel his moves and go with them, gently, smoothly. When you get stiff anywhere, it throws the rythm off.

CharlesCityCat said...

johanna:

Very well put!

Dena said...

Good God not that I want to encourage hits but has anyone read the latest in dingbat theology?

Lots of polo ponies go to slaughter in one breath and in the next well she should have asked for help from the very wealthy polo community.

This takes the cake.

BringItOn said...

Yea-doesn't make much sense does it? Gee, my guess is that it is the wealthy polo people who are dumping them in the first place?

Oh and I don't know. Rather than say she should sell off a couple of acres to support the horses. How about getting rid of the horses? Didn't sound like the woman's health was good enough to take care of them, not that she couldn't afford too. Which could mean a lot of things-physical or mental health. Probably both.

People are so stupid in their quest to "save them all". Sheez.

PrairieFarmer said...

That polo retirement lady actually emailed me in the spring (I looked for the email last night but I can't find it...). I had gotten on this quest to find a "needing a home" polo horse over the winter because I once many years ago played polo, have a HUGE respect for those horses, and was looking for a horse that I knew would be broke as far as no bad habits around my children yet would have some get up and go when I wanted to actually have a little fun on occasion.
Anyways, I found that women's website and emailed her. She sent me a very nice, sane email back encouraging me but saying she didn't know of anything available. So it is rather shocking to see now what has happened. And I read the comments on the local article, supposedly (at least by her neighbors), this lady had some bucks. So what happened supposedly couldn't be blamed on a lack of financial resources.
Anyways, the whole things is rather disheartening. Especially when I look at the beautiful retired polo mare I did get from a local college club looking for a new home for her. 20 year old TB. Sweet as pie and funny personality (first mare I've ever actually really liked, to be honest...). Gorgeous despite a slightly sway back and polo tie-down acquired ewe neck. She gets all full of herself in the pasture sometimes and runs around doing rollbacks. Then she comes up and gives my 3 year old kisses.
Anyways, very sad. And yes, the polo community does have a lot of money so man, why oh why does this have to happen. "Rescue" is becoming a synonym for "crazy" to me...I have to say.

PrairieFarmer said...

P.S. That's a picture of my polo mare in my avatar. No long after I got her and her roached polo mane was just starting to come back in - all mohawk style. She also likes to do the loose bottom lip thing, which you can see in this photo. Cracks me up.

Dena said...

PF she is cute. Looks a bit like a giraffe from the angle the photo was shot which makes it interesting.

I am going to read your blog.
(that was your warning lol)

BringItOn ever notice how most everything she endorses usually ends up going to shit?

SFTS quit following me around you Freaking Stalker!
No lulz in that.
That is a lot of nerve going on a thread dealing with the perceived harassment of a child on the internet and posting when YOU have a restraining order against you for harassing a child on the internet.
You are either completely sociopathically deviant or practising for your c0ommunity service.

Dena said...

"community." And I forgot to add you crazy ass morally deficient nutbag!

SFTS said...

Following you? LMAO! Uh, that's funny. But I forgive you, your prescription must have run out. *eyeroll*

Cute horse PF!

PrairieFarmer said...

Dena -
She is very giraffe like - actually! She is 16 hands, really long-legged and a long neck which, due to the polo style, tends to go up, up, up! I had some issues with her as far as high-headedness til I broke down and put a standing martingale on her (and also work her with some of JR's lateral flexion exercises). Now she is just fine for what I want to do, which is mostly just occasional tooling around.
And I hope you like my blog - I tend to post late at night after about 14 hours in the fields picking for market so my posts can get a little bit silly at times!

fernvalley01 said...

Hey Dena , Good morning! Just came back from your blogs, read em both!
good thoughts on the sunshine one. Just sayin...

Dena said...

PF I like silly...

Fern Good Morning... I was being kind. SFTS has been tagging everywhere I go.
2 minutes after my last post.
I could have called her worse.
But I didn't.
In this case my silence would have been unkind.
Unkind in that she may have confused my silence with acceptance for her brand of bullshit.

SFTS said...

Good Lord, Dena, I've been reading TJM's blog since last Summer!

Maybe you're the one stalking me?

fernvalley01 said...

Ok, Just wanted to say hey! and good morning , (maybe to be the devil/angel on your shoulder fo a minute . But I will behave!

Dena said...

Reading and posting are two entirely different things.
I don't want people thinking that I brought you to the party.
I did that once and you refused to leave when it was time to go.
Not a mistake I will be making again.

Fern you have carte blanche to ride my shoulder.lol

SFTS said...

LOL...I've never gone anywhere you invited me to, Dena.

I came here to this blog at JR's invitation, because you just_wouldn't_quit on his training blog and on FHOTD.

Is your memory that shot, or so you just have selective memory?

Besides, you're the one stating you are a first timer on TJM's blog.

Plus, siding with the lovely gal from Baywind isn't going to gain you many Brownie points there, I'm thinkin'.

Just saying.

GoLightly said...

(yawn)

Dena said...

Why is it that you choose to engage in dialogue with people
you have caused by your own actions to have a rabid dislike of you?

you are always taking shots. Always.
Post some more links. Remind everyone of why you think I am not worthy of respect.
Most of us already know why you aren't.
I didn't post one thing about you until you had to start using me as your platform again.

Just get off my coat tails.

SFTS said...

Get off your coattails?! Damn Dena, I'm glad I wasn't taking a sip of my water, because I'd be drying off my monitor, keyboard and mouse about now. LOL!!

Rabid dislike...let's see, the only people who have a "rabid dislike" of me are you and a couple of your friends. Hell, even some of your "friends" email me with regularity and apologize to me for your bad behavior.

This very thread here is a perfect example of that bad behavior of yours. Nice conversation, intelligent comments, until you start to harp on Cathy, then make a slam at me calling me a "stalker".

Do you even stop to think how sick and tired even some of your own self-professed friends are getting of your rants? Your lashing out? Your juvenile, desperate attempts to continually make these blogs all about you?

I didn't think so.

Carry on.

fernvalley01 said...

Are we there yet?
this ride is going no place fast

Dena said...

My friends don't email you. You are just a sad, delusional, maladjusted bitch.

You have no real friends. Or your life would not depend on the kindness of strangers.

Your life is exactly why I win. Your unwillingness to change is why I will always win.

You are a loser. Not because of anything I have said or done.
No you have earned that "Title" all by yourself.

Now don't you have some more sour grapes to ferment here, there, everywhere?
Sour, diseased fruit.
That is what you are.
And the stench is something I do not choose to be associated with.

Okay Fern. I am done for now. I actually have horses to ride and pastures to rotate.
Thank you for keeping me grounded.

SFTS said...

Oh, my sides. Dena, you really need to stop! LOL!! Rant like a hormonal thirteen year old much?

Yes, folks who have identified themselves as your friends have and do email me.

Yes, I've got a great many friends. They are wonderful, and indeed yes, they are kind! Plus we do on occasion meet "strangers", and many of them eventually become friends as well.

Oh, okay. You WIN the internet! Feel better about yourself now?

*headdesk* (since some of you find that so amusing...glad to be of help in brightening your day!)

Dena said...

I win the internet? That was the least of what I was referring to.

NotAFollower said...

Hey, Dena and SFTS - why don't ya do us all a favor and both just decide to ignore each other?

CharlesCityCat said...

Funny, I didn't think it was her's to lose!


Sorry, just couldn't help myself. LOL!

nccatnip said...

joanna-
who is Sally Swift?

Kid said...

NAF-in a perfect world. Where is Roses, hell it's been two weeks and not a peep, I kinda miss her and hope everything is well, Dena?

Back OT-I believe both sides are equal in the blame, about the time I was told she wasn't the BO's to sell I would have walked away. I don't feel sorry for her only for that reason. I even have bills of sale on the free horses I have gotten over the years and make sure they are mine free and clear.

I board at a barn where there is a 17hh TB, 19 years old and he stumbles. I was told that he has neurological problems, but not exactly what is going on with him or what his exact diagnosis is. The problem is, he only stumbles on rocks not on grass, hell I stumble when I step on a rock in my bare feet. I have ridden him a few times and he is a Beautiful guy, very well trained. Can anyone enlighten me on what it could be?

GoLightly said...

Sally Swift, Centered Riding, NCC.

jeez, you didn't pay attention in class, did ya!! HP's gonna spank ya!
READ it or, I will MAKE you do those exercises:)
I can't afford to read it.

There's a test you can do with their legs to check for neuro damage.. Like in dogs.
Daisy cutters weren't meant to roam over rocks, though..
If he's unused to the terrain, it's challenging for him..

I have to go eat though..

joanna said...

Sally Swift: Centered Riding. Highly recommended read. You know how your always told to sit straight, with your chest out and head up? And you end up feeling stiff? Well, she has you visualizing a string attached to the top of your head with someone pulling you up from that string. You achieve a proper seat without feeling like a floozy showing off her boobs!

Stumbling on rocks could be tender soles. You try running barefoot on gravel after wearing shoes all winter. Shoes can protect alot, but small stones can still bother tender feet. Try Venice turpentine on the soles.

Kid said...

He's a retired jumper and I know what you all mean about the rocks but she is telling me he has a neurological problem, not what it is just that he has one. The barn manager says it is from jumping his whole life. He was donated to a college for the equine program and when they were done they gave him to one of the barn staff. She dumped him at the barn where I board and hasn't seen him for two months. The BM is the "EXPERT" here, I said put on shoes and she said it wouldn't help, I even offered to pay half.

JohnieRotten said...

Kid

It may not even be neurological. TBs are known for having bad feet. You can alwAys try an easy boot on the rocks and see of that helps. But the fact that he only stumbles on rocks says it is not neurological.

JohnieRotten said...

One other thing to mention Kid is that the last time I had a horse that only stumble on rocky surfaces was a horse that was nerved by the vet.

Kid said...

Thanks JR, I don't know why some people are so blatantly ignorant but try to make everyone think they are all knowing, I'm learning some very hard lessons at this barn. I will try the easy boots, as soon as I figure out what they are:)

Kid said...

Is it dumb to not know what nerving and easy boots are if you have never had either one?

JohnieRotten said...

Easy boots fit over the horses foot. They are made of rubber so the horse has traction.

Nerving is also called a Neurectomy. The vet severs the nerve to the foot if the horse has had a serious injury. However some people do not realize that when the horse goes over uneven surfaces they will stumble.

CharlesCityCat said...

Kid:

No it isn't, each of us know what we know based on what our experiences are. One can read all sorts of things, but unless we are actually exposed, it doesn't mean that much. I think, as long as we are willing to learn from what we are exposed to, we are good.

Kid said...

I wonder if his owner realizes this or if she just doesn't care. He isn't mine, but maybe I'll check them out and if they aren't too high buy some, wouldn't hurt to have them around anyway.

off to do a price check.....

Kid said...

Thanks CCC, I wish more people like you and JR lived around here.

CharlesCityCat said...

Kid:

I am no expert on anything equine, but I do know to ask questions like you have done. It is excellent that we all have access to a helpful place like JR's blog and other's such as his.

WiltedZebra said...

As testy as people can be on the forums and blog comment sections, I think that these are the places where horse people are most up front. In my time in horses I have learned that although people may seem friendly enough, there are plenty of nasty things being said and planned for in real life. I know of no other activity where people are as mean or self absorbed as they are in horses. Sure they all love the horse, but have absolutely zero tolerance for anything that is outside of their range of experience or comfort zone. I am so tired of the nastiness and back stabbing that if I wasn't afraid of what would become of my horse, I would get out of horses all together. I'm just a normal person, with a normal horse. I would like to say that we are well liked by others at our boarding facility, but the way people are, I just don't know. After twenty years or so in horses, I don't really care either, I am just tired of it all.

JohnieRotten said...

WZ

your observation is sad but true.

But I will say this, I have been in this business my whole life and I take a lot of pride in my profession. I have met more good people than bad in the horses, but the experiences that I have had and the friends I have made, there is no way I would ever give that up.

Sadly, there over the past decade or so has been such a downward trend in the quality of trainers and the uality of amatures that have destroyed the very integrity of the profession that I love. The used car mentality and the win at all costs have taken a definite toll on the animals.

The very reason that I started Mr Rottens Neighborhood is show people thy there are between ways to train a horse that help the horses rather than hinder his progress. It is also to help the riders as well. I would rather help for free than see someone get hurt.

As far as this blog, it to can be a ace to help but also vent. It is not rlly only here for two people.

Whatever you do WZ stay with the horses. There really are good people out there.

Dena said...

Kid roses is doing great!!! She and her family are loving the new place.
She is still searching internet providers that is why she has been absent.
I will tell her that you asked after her.

Personally I can't wait until she has her web pass back.
She does not have my restraint.
ROLMAO

SFTS said...

NotAFollower wrote:
Hey, Dena and SFTS - why don't ya do us all a favor and both just decide to ignore each other?
- - - - - - - -

Hey, that's fine by me. If she'd quit stalking and harassing me, I would have no problem ignoring her. Hell, I'd much rather ignore her, since she's never got anything substantial or intelligent to say. ;)


WiltedZebra wrote:
I know of no other activity where people are as mean or self absorbed as they are in horses. I am so tired of the nastiness and back stabbing that if I wasn't afraid of what would become of my horse, I would get out of horses all together.
- - - - - - - -

JR is very right on many aspects, and there are some truly wonderful people, caring owners and terrific trainers out there.

As of this year I've been in this business as a professional trainer for 30 years, and I too have met some incredible, fantastic people. Far more good than bad. Unfortunately, the bad apples really can try to spoil the whole bunch.

Dena said...

SFTS I can only say that exposure to you must be what it would be like to have a flea biting my ass.

Don't you have some more links and references to publish about me to establish your superiority?
Silly bitch.

I just remind myself that I was invited.
And as per usual, you were not.

And now I will commence ignoring you.
Yet again.

Dena said...

But one more thing before I do.

May your camp trailer in Phelan be parked on a very steep hill.
May you forget to block the wheels.
And may there be a big wind and a big truck.
I really don't care. Because I really don't like you.

hls said...

I think it's less "what has happened to the horse industry" and more "this is how it's always been, welcome to reality." I have been shocked at how many underhanded, nasty, unethical and unprofessional practices I've seen in the horse business since I started riding again five years ago.

When I was a kid and riding, I wasn't privy to all the pettiness and crap; but now I've seen it first-hand and experienced it too. From overhorsing amateur riders to overpromising wins to outright abuse of horses, I feel weary and old before my time having witnessed that kind of ugliness.

I don't know what it is about the horse industry that attracts so many people who aren't savory, but when I actually do meet someone who isn't a crook or a nasty piece of business, I feel extremely lucky.

And yes, the person who wrote to JR was naive, but I've seen similar deals over and over again. And that's just five years of experience. At the first big boarding/training barn I ended up at, the trainer had stolen a horse from a former client and given it to one of her students. She routinely did under the table exchange deals where people could "work off" their board or the cost of a horse but would eventually decide she hated the person working off their debt and would renege on the deal. She was well-known for chaining horses' stalls shut if she didn't want the boarder to leave. She scammed for prescription drugs. She had a barn full of little girls who she taught, and her brother-in-law was reported to have had inappropriate sexual contact with a minor and he lived on the property. Etc. It was a nightmare at her barn, but not so unusual, as it turns out.

There are good, professional, caring people out there. You just have to be careful and use your gut. My current instructor is USEF-certified, so she has a lot riding on her professional reputation. We do everything in a straight cash exchange, and we both maintain our boundaries. She's a peach of a person and a good instructor too.

But I do feel like I literally had to walk through hell to find a good instructor, and as a newbie to the industry, I was taken in by fancy talk and empty promises. I can think of no other industry, except health care, perhaps, where a person so desperately needs assistance in order to learn and to be safe but where it's so unregulated and so opaque that it's nearly impossible to know if you are making a good decision. The watchword is caveat emptor for the average new horse enthusiast, but without help or instruction of some kind, the person is likely to walk away from the sport. I literally sat down and cried at one point because I didn't know how to find an honest trainer who wasn't abusive or shady.

I actually think this is a huge problem for an industry that needs an infusion of enthusiastic youngsters to keep it going. The average age of the horse enthusiast keeps going up, and fewer and fewer kids are getting involved. It seems to me that the industry as a whole should come together to create standards and best practices to help attract and keep younger riders and their families.

GoLightly said...

HUGE applause to hls.

Well said.

nccatnip said...

Question- Don't trainers have to apply and hold valid business licenses and insurance in most areas?

And report income to the IRS?

Would that not make them
answerable to BBB complaints?

Since there is appearently no formal legal and binding way of certifying a trainer, how does the novice go about finding a trainer with ethics and scruples?

SFTS said...

But hls, it really isn't the way it's always been, at all. While there have always been unsavory or unethical people in the horse world, I do believe the rapid expansion of the internet has really brought a lot of those people to the forefront. We all see the bad ones brought to light more frequently, and word is spread so much faster.

Part of the problem with the idea of infusing younger folks is that there is a very different work ethic today than there was, say, 20 years ago. Back then, you could easily find youngsters (often college or high school students, sometimes even the kids in junior high) who would get to the barn early, work their tails off all day and go home late, exhausted and happy, happy because they were working with horses. No pay, just interns who's labor was all volunteer, simply to learn. These days? Many young people (not all, but many) are lazy, insolent, sedentary and would rather sit around all day playing on the computer or playing video games.

I'm open to answers. :) Really, I am.

SFTS said...

If a trainer is running a business, then yes, they are normally required to have a business license for their local town or city. However, for instance, where I live is an unincorporated area of my county, there is no "City of Pinon Hills", it's a county-based community. When I inquired about business licenses, no, none necessary. A Fictitious Business Name (DBA) filing in my county was, however, required. They are good for five years at a time, kept on file with the county and must be published in the "legal notices" section of the newspaper.

nccatnip wrote:
Since there is appearently no formal legal and binding way of certifying a trainer, how does the novice go about finding a trainer with ethics and scruples?
- - - - - - - -

Ask around, watch, listen. Unfortunately the only way you can be sure to find an honest, ethical and good trainer is to become lucky in your search. It sucks, but that's really just the way it is.

JohnieRotten said...

Nccatnip

my business is actually an llc and Ido file a schedule c every year and I keep everything on the up and up. I own my place so I think there is more pride in what I do. A lot of trainers are very transient and go from barn barn, and for them there is little at stake. And there are a lot of them that do not pay taxes.

Hls

I agree with you about the infusion of young people, but as this business is largely economy based like all businesses, and with the current economy the way it is, there is no incentive for younger people to become trainers. When we first built our barn I had it full and had a waiting list before the barn was finished. Over the past few years I wAiting list diminished and people have decided they can no longer afford to pay me. And yes this business draws a lot of crooks, but those people do it because they think they can earn a fast few bucks. Though now with horse sales starting to tank that is more difficult.

PrairieFarmer said...

I just gotta say, and I know this is a naive comment but I'm going to say it anyways...
When did horses stop being fun and get so darn freakin' complicated?????
I know I'm a yahoo about some things and I'm certainly always willing to consider something new but geez, it seems like there is little room for a "balanced" approach to horses. It's like ya gotta have the shiniest barn, the nicest stall, the best fenced paddock, goes to the best trainer and has all the accouterments that go with all that stuff or you are not "worthy" enough to own a horse. But the other extreme is the idiot who buys a 1 year old colt, puts them in their garage, feeds them straw and posts pictures of their 2 year old standing on its back!
Where's the balance?

PrairieFarmer said...

Ha!Ha! I just went over to our porch and all of my 12 turkeys are sitting on my back porch pecking at our glass french doors looking in the house! Turkeys are such a crack-up...

JohnieRotten said...

Pf

horses became complicated when some idiot decided that there was a horse worth a million dollars. Then you ended up with a whole new breed of people that had the money to put into their kids show career. And it all went down hill from there. Next thing you know these kids are being handed their wins instead of earning thme and they grew up to teach their kids the lack of real values.

I am not saying that all people are like this but there are a few that screw the rest. The trainers fall into the same catagories.

JohnieRotten said...

There are also a lot of trainers that were eq riders when they were younger and won a lot and never learned how to lose. The next thing you know they are trainers though they have never trained a horse in their lives. So they cheat to win.

And it just goes down hill from their.

PrairieFarmer said...

Horse for a million dollar! No kidding. I mean if a horse can be worth a million dollars than why not a billion dollars? A trillion dollars? It is all just what somebody with too much money is willing to pay for something that does nothing for them in life other than to make them feel better about themselvs, right? The horse really has little to nothing to do with it. That to me is a "false" market and unfortunately likely to "burst" leaving good folks like yourself picking up the mess.
I must admit, sometimes I wish big oil would just explode and we would be forced to look for ways to power the things we need without oil combustion engines! And horse power was once a very, very valuable commodity to us! Crazy talk I know! But think, a great mare like your Johnnie would be valued not because she could kick butt in the cutting competitions, but because she was actually really good at working a commodity that could feed people!

JohnieRotten said...

I hear ya there PF

hls said...

JR: You make a good point about the economics of horses. Certainly the tanking economy will drive scammers and losers out of the business. That said, there's always someone who thinks they can make a quick buck off the back of a horse. (Although anyone who knows anything about horses knows they really are the biggest money sink in the world. Totally worth it, but a black hole you can throw handfuls of cash into without fear of ever seeing it again.)

On the other hand, would it be so bad to have some kind of regulatory body overseeing instructors and trainers? For example, instructors would need to be certified in basic first aid, CPR, have a background check run so they can work with youngsters (to weed out the scary molesters and other inappropriates), and take a written exam on basics of horse care, anatomy, health and other necessary knowledge. Meeting these basic requirements would allow the instructor to call him/herself a licensed practicioner.

Then instructors could add further certifications to their licenses that are breed or discipline specific. So someone could have a basic license, say, and then have certifications in reining, roping, and barrel racing (Forgive me if I get my Western terminology incorrect here.) or certifications in dressage and eventing. The discipline/breed specific certifications would test depth of knowledge and might include training classes and other requirements such as actual showing and wins or other demonstratable justification for holding the certifications.

The same could be done with people who want to become licensed trainers. And yes, I do think there should be a distinction drawn between instructors and trainers. Not all trainers choose to be instructors and not all instructors should be trainers. Anyone who held the double license would be something special as the two fields really require different skills in many respects. For trainers who are already working in the field--the good ones that is--it will be a breeze to get licensed. The knowledge will be at your fingertips, and although everyone's method differs, I think we can all agree that there are some basics that never change. Those would form the basis for the license, and then you'd work out from there.

I would want to see a code of ethics be applied to the field as well, much as lawyers and doctors have, and there would be a disciplinary process that would allow abusive tactics of any kind (to horse or human) to be investigated and punished as needed.

This would allow newbies to the sport to choose reliable, knowledgeable and vetted instructors and trainers. It also would allow knowledgeable and excellent trainers to demand the price that they are worth, even in a not-so-great economy. Parents and riders of all ages would know what they were getting for their money, and I do believe people would be willing to pay for the peace of mind, particularly if this imaginary licensing board were to undertake a good publicity campaign to get the message out about licensed horse trainers.

Personally, I think paying for my USEF-certified instructor/trainer is worth every single penny. She's more expensive than the woman just down the road who threw out a shingle and calls herself a trainer, but I know my instructor/trainer has knowledge to back up her claims and a reputation to maintain. She's a technical delegate and a rated judge as well. She knows her stuff, and I'm gladly paying top dollar for it.

hls said...

Completely off-topic, but this made me laugh like mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg-heCy0CbQ&fmt=18

JohnieRotten said...

Hls

that is a funny link.

Dena said...

What ever happened to taking responsibility for your own education?
I hear way too much, "well, so and so said so I thought it would be okay."

Whatever so and so said might get me to go and look.
But I am not giving someone care of my child, my horse, or my money,
because so and so said.

That is the other thing that bothers me about newbies.
Horses may very well be magical but the people who make their living from them often are not.

Please stop acting like you were born yesterday and it is everyone elses responsibility to see you safely through your latest hobby.

If you pay for a half or an hour pay attention. And stop trying to turn a half or an hour into 2-3-20 hours of free instruction.

If you hire an agent actually listen to what is said.
You didn't buy a buddy to hang out with and just go look at any horse that caught your eye while you were on Dreamhorse or reading the paper.
Damn...you participated in an evaluation, specified your requirements, and signed a contract.
Didn't you?
Your agent is not your new best friend. They are the person you hired to see to your best interest in navigating the slippery slope of your equine purchase.

And while, you may be new to horses when did the responsibility for your education stop being your responsibility?

I respect those who ask questions. I don't respect getting a call and hearing someone say, "when can I bring my horse?" Which is followed by me saying, "and who are you?"

What happened to the people who genuinely wanted to learn and experience horsemanship and ownership as safely as possible?

Now there is too much I know that I am a beginner but I want that horse.
You know the one I am most likely to get hurt on. Because he/she is pretty!

No the supply of truly well broke, sane, and sound horses, has diminished tremendously.

And trainers who used to have sale horses within their own barn that they worked with and trained has also diminished.

Not to mention a lot of barn hopping by clients. Which means that horses that you used to be able to recommend based on personal experience of has also diminished.

And common sense and the willingness to truly work to attain your goals has been left in the dust by many.
Many who are looking for the next best greatest gimmick and shortcut to what can only be achieved through hard work, discipline, and commitment.

JR you file those pesky schedule Cs and actually declare your income and pay taxes on it too?
Amazing how many don't.

And how many say they will only take cash because they have dealt with too many bad checks in the past.*snort*

That applies for purchases off of craigslist.

Rant over.

Dena said...

I keep hearing Jeff Foxworthy's lines about you might be a redneck if.

He should do a comedic routine titled "You might be a trainer if"
cracking myself up over here on my side of the screen.

nccatnip said...

I'll bite Dena:

"You might be a trainer if

all your students love you.

Nicely dun said...

Dena,
Awesome rant.

THat makes sense, when did people lose the mindset to look into things on their own, rather than the he said she said's

:D

horspoor said...

Or the people that believe the catalog description of a bit. Training bit = nasty shank, with a noseband, and gag action? WTF? What are you training. Or good transition bit....transitioning to what? Cut off tongue? Rearing?

Dena said...

No NCC I was thinking more along the lines that you might be a trainer if, you have bumped your head and rolled in the dirt more times than a child learning how to walk.

You might be a trainer if you have given more blood over the course of your life than the Red Cross collected in a local drive.

You might be a trainer if you have more bridles on your tack room wall than the local tack shop AND know the proper use of all of them.

You might be a trainer if you have taken more bad paper than you have passed on.

You might be a trainer if you actually know how to ride a horse.

You might be a trainer if the horses you train actually meet you at the gate even though you are holding a halter and lead instead of heading for the hills like they just saw a bear.

You might be a trainer if you ever have 2 horses from the same client.

You are simply lucky if you get PAID for both.

You might be a trainer if you are always truthful and honest with your clients.
Even if it means they are offended when you say, no offense but I am a trainer not a miracle worker and YOU will never be able to ride this horse.

I could go for days. But real trainers piss a lot of clients off on their way to building their reputations.
Simply by saying, "No." No, I will not do that. No, I can't do that.
And no, I don't care how much you pay me the rules are the rules.

David Boggs' clients love him. Cleve Wells clients love him.
Just because people claim to love you does not mean you are doing it right.
You might just be a real good bullshitter.
Your clients might be idiots.
Lots of possibilities in this.

I am not speaking of anyone in particular.
And JR has already been given the golden ticket with regard to anything I own and I would refer anyone to him.

So maybe you might be a real trainer if your PEERS(fellow trainers)not only love you but love your work.
And recommend you highly.

nccatnip said...

Well said and point taken, Dena. Eloquent as always.

GoLightly said...

Standing Ovation, Dena.


Wow, you are in rare form today.

Meowrrrr.

horspoor said...

I did tell one woman while her adult daughter was standing there, "You don't need me, you need Dr. Kervorkian."

She was abit shocked. But dang. Anything you told her, suggested she had to argue, and then do it her own way. Like lying on the ground with the lunge line, connected to her grazing horse, tied to her ankle.

hls said...

So, based on Dena's observations, newbies to the sport don't deserve a way to make smart decisions or to find a trustworthy trainer/instructor to help them learn more about their "latest hobby"?

Typically people turn to trainers/instructors to help guide them through the often confusing and exciting world of horse ownership. A great trainer/instructor will suggest a reading list and point out ways to learn more about the sport. He or she also will spend time with the newbie to help transfer knowledge through hands-on learning, arguably an important concept in the world of horses since we all know reading about how to train a horse is different than being on the ground and working with a living, breathing animal.

Of course a newbie needs to take responsibility for his or her education, but how can he or she do that if the system isn't transparent?

No one told me outright that the boarding barn of the trainer I described in an earlier post was a horrible place to be. It was only AFTER I left that people said "Oh...that place. Yeah, it's bad."

How could I make a judgment for myself when the information wasn't available? And yes, I asked around! I asked for recommendations, and that's where I ended up. And some of the same folks who recommended it, later said "it wouldn't have been my first choice." My god, I thought, then why recommend it?

Horse aren't for everyone, but if folks in the industry aren't careful, horses will only end up being for the uber-rich or those who grew up in it and live and breathe it. I don't think that's good for the industry at all. And I'm not the only one who thinks that: http://www.citizenhorse.com/2009/01/11/how-much-will-you-pay-part-one/

horspoor said...

hls, I liked that link. I think there are ethical people in the horse world.

I often get calls from new horse people, or those looking to get back into horses. Usually recommended by a student, or ex student. Sadly, often it is after they have purchased some unpapered, or lame dink for over $5000 and don't understand why Midnight is so vile to them. But he came with a $1500 saddle. Uh huh, Chicks monthly special or an Argentine close contact most often.

And yeah, they usually aren't happy to hear what I have to say about Midnight. Some get angry and walk away. Others want to try and fix it. Others...I've returned the horse for them and gotten the money back (if local)....this is a small community, and I'm more than happy to shame the unscrupulous in public. Nothing gets attention like calling somebody on something at a rodeo or horse show. Stand up without shame in front of your peers...and make good. And yes, I'm sure it was a mistake..but now fix it, please.

Dena said...

Oh hls that is not what I am saying at all.

I am simply saying that it is necessary to treat professionals as professionals.
Have you ever been to the Dr. and had them say, "Hey no problem and no charge because I like you and want to promote good health care."

There are books aplenty. There is so much information out there.
Factual information.
On the professional level it stands to reason that you have to pay to play.
Or, in this case, learn.

There are many of us who give back. But to be honest, and speaking for myself, I am more likely to choose those who express a sincere desire to learn.

Which in my world translates into a lot more looking and listening than it does talking.

Because here I go being offensive again. You know what? I don't want to hear about what a rank beginner thinks they know beyond the original evaluation.
You know why? I already know what they don't know.

And for me? I have earned the right who I choose to take on a scholarship basis.
And why would I take the ones who can afford to pay?

So no I am not saying people are not entitled to help.
I am saying they have an obligation to self-help too.

And it is a hobby until the newbie proves it isn't.

There are plenty of first time parents who struggle, explore, and research, where to send their precious angels to daycare and school.

All without the excuse of well I thought it would be a good place because so and so said or but I have never done this before.

I say no a lot. I say Hell No! Even more.

I am good at what I do. Really good.
But I am not good at every discipline and I am not a good people teacher.

And I have no difficulty saying, "No, I am not interested in doing that."

Why is it that honesty in advertising offends so many?

And then, they wonder why they end up in a crappy barn, with a crazy horse that may or may not be sound, with some deadbeat taking their money, and somehow it is always someone elses fault.

The responsibility starts with the individual.
I think NCC had a very good idea about the licensing.
Definitely a place to start.
Weed out some of the hacks and posers.

Hey ND good to see you.

GL I am in a mood.lol

GoLightly said...

Oh, HLS, she's just in a mood.
one helluva mood, I grant you..

My own story in horses kinda sucked. I think you're very smart to have (finally) found a place you trust, and you deserve kudos, anywhere.

I think something like what the Brits have would be at least a place to start.
Some sort of common ground, horse-care based system. No matter the discipline.
A Universal Pony Club Manual.
Okay, a Continental PCM.
I know. Impossible. dang, that was typed with a french accent, it didn't come through..

Licensing of some sort might have prevented some of the terrible stories I've read (and experienced) from happening.

But it will never entirely prevent bad trainers and bad owners from getting into horses, that have no business being there.

To Good Training, from the beginning, to the end.

utopian out.

horspoor said...

I like the licensing idea myself. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would sure start the ball rolling.

Oh, and I do have CPR and first aid training...I used to have my EMT (didn't keep up on it).

Another thing...trainers and instructors should be required to carry liability insurance. If they take your horse in for training, they should have 'care, custody, and control' coverage.

For one thing, it protects the trainer's assests, but most importantly should something go wrong, and somebody is hurt....there will be money to pay medical bills. Can you imagine going to a lawyer or an insurance agent that didn't have professional liability, or a doctor that didn't carry malpractice insurance? If you are going to call yourself a professional...behave as one.

Dena said...

Okay here is my contribution to all people considering in engaging in equine sports that have no knowledge.

When interviewing a seller, barn owner, trainer, or instructor, if they tell you only what you want to hear, never tell you no, or present limitors?

RRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!
Away. Very fast. With your purse tucked under your arm like a professional runningback with the football heading for the winning goal.

In other words run as though your life depended upon it.
Because it just might.

hls said...

Dena, you and I will have to agree to disagree then. You seem to have adopted a slight sneering tone about newbies, and as someone who is new (five years) and still learning, I take umbrage with the tone.

I will say this: People don't sign up with instructors and trainers because they don't want to learn. If they didn't want to learn, they would try to go it alone. And certainly, some people try to take advantage of trainer/instructor's kindness, but really, how often does that happen. Most folks I know are eager to pay for their lessons and meet with their teachers.

The real problem I see is that there's often (but not always) an inherent class difference between many clients and instructors/trainers. In other words, many clients are college-educated and used to a give/take learning environment. What a more working class-oriented instructor or trainers see as a student being uppity is just a given for the learning environment the middle class or upper middle class client is accustomed to being a part of.

I personally come from a solidly working class background and have moved into another social class via college education, and I have always had to straddle that line with my own family, so I was able to work peaceably with my more working class trainers. I knew that nothing riled them up more than my "damn book learning" and my excitement about sharing new ideas I had just learned about. It just aggravated them to no end, much as it does my mother or my grandfather or my aunts and uncles. So, I learned to keep a lid on the learning I was doing on my own, as I knew it was not appreciated in way, shape or form. (And yet, there's the unwritten expectation that I am to get myself some learning about horses. Ironic, no?)

Perhaps this is also what makes my current instructor so appealing to me. We have similar educational backgrounds, and she often engages in give/take conversations that are fun and informative and that allow me to ask questions even as I share information I'm learning about through reading.

I do challenge your daycare/school analogy outright though. Both schools and daycares fall under licensing and regulation. The horse industry does not.

I can make a great choice for my (hypothetical) child because of the existing network of statistics and performance standards. I can know if my kid is going to be with peers who are ranked in the top 10 percent of learners or with peers who are ranked in the lowest 10 percent. I can check to see if the daycare providers have had trouble with licensing in the past, and I know that my providers adhere to a minimum standard of practice and ethical obligations.

As I pointed out earlier, a licensing structure does not exist in the horse world (though I advocate for it strongly), so as a consumer or hobbyist or whatever other terminology you want to apply to me, I have no way of knowing just what I'm walking into, particularly if I'm new to the game.

To me, this is a very large difference which renders the analogy useless.

Cheers.

Dena said...

No hls I am not sneering I promise you that.
99% of an equine education is learning from your mistakes.
That applies to all of us.

In learning from our mistakes we replace he and she with I.

Please don't tell me or any professional that people only take lessons because they want to learn.
If only that were true.

And newbies make me crazy. Because most do NOT listen.

Here is an example for you. 15 years ago I was riding for a dealer.

There was a coal black QH gelding that was gorgeous, fast, as lightning, and a dead run away.
That horse could do 40mph with his nose pulled to your knee and looking you in the eye.

Parents come along and want to buy their little girl(under 14 years of age)who happened to be on dialysis, frail and thin, a horse.

The one day I wasn't there.

So they bought the coal black QH gelding.
I am assuming with visions of Black Beauty or The Black Stallion fairytale adventures in their future.

The reality? She was on the horse bareback, because she did not know how to put a saddle on.
The stories of the why vary from person to person, but the horse bolted, she lost her seat on pavement, horse stepped on her hand, and she permanently lost the majority of her fingers.

I have hundreds of stories like this hls.
From personal experience or knowledge of the parties.
Did I mention the dealer was my own Father?

So no. You cannot just assume that people know the right thing or will do the right thing.
Not in life. And certainly not in horses.

I would not know these things had I not experienced them.
I have been taken for some hellacious rides by people in horses.

But in reviewing for fault I changed it to I.
As in, I should have known better, or well, I certainly learned a lesson there.

fernvalley01 said...

I'll give it a go.
You might be a trainer if, realise doing it right doesn't mean doing it fast!
come to think of it ,that fits a lot of situations.
GET IN THE MOMENT

hls said...

Dena, that's certainly a terrible and tragic story, and I know as well as you do that there are many of them like that out there. Now, to play devil's advocate, would those parents have been better off if they had hired a competent, licensed trainer to help them make their horse selection and help teach their little girl how to ride? I would say yes, but maybe they didn't know where to find such a person.

I would merely like to see some transparency in the system so that the good trainers can rise to the top and the bad, scamming, abusive trainers can be run out of town. It will benefit the trainers who deserve to be paid for their services and it will protect consumers.

And to add to the "You know you're a trainer if" fun, you know you're a trainer if you can be standing in the indoor arena giving a lesson and still know that some kids are farting around on their ponies outside and doing something you specifically told them not to do a hundred times before, and you can discipline the kids outside by shouting out their names and instructions for stopping their foolishness while never missing a beat in the lesson. (My childhood instructor had eyes in the back of her darn head! True story!) :-)

CharlesCityCat said...

hls:

I am going to have to disagree with your generalization of the interactions between working class trainers and clients who have higher education.

I have a college degree and work in a white collar job, always have. I have also been back in horses since 1988. I have worked with a number of different trainers over the years, some with a college degree, some not. I never had issues with any of them like you have described, and I know my friends would say the same.


You know you are a trainer when your idea of getting dressed up is changing from your brown paddock to your black paddock boots.

CharlesCityCat said...

dang it, that should read changing from your brown paddock boots to your black paddock boots.

Proof reading is my friend, should use it more often.

CharlesCityCat said...

This could also apply to western trainers, substitute brown cowboy boots for black cowboy boots.

I have never been a trainer, not near good enough, but I have known many. Let me think about it some more.

Come on JR and CNJ, you must have some real good ones.

SFTS, you must have some good ones too.

Kid said...

My first horse was a 16.2hh paint, and I bought him from a friend for 2,000.00. She told me to get a trainer and take lessons. But nooooo, I rode horses all the time when I was younger(25 years ago), threw on a bridle jumped on bareback, I didn't need no stinking trainer.

This gelding was fine for a while, then we went on a 5 mile trail ride, actually back roads. At the halfway point we got off, checked tack and feet and got back on. This apparently took him back to his racing days and he was ready to go. It took all I had to hold him back, he started shaking and sweating.

He wasn't the lead horse the whole time but after our break another rider got in front of him and it was all over. I did not get off him, I made everyone stay behind us and he was a perfect gentleman the 2.5 miles back.

He scared the shit out of me and I never rode him again and sold him 6 months later for nothing compared to what I paid. This horse was a very well trained horse but wasn't for the uninformed.

I know some of you are going to give me shit about this and that is ok, I have had 6 horses since then and never rode any of them, except the horse I have now, Kid, he's an OTTB, duh! I put a 30 day refresher on him. I'm not giving up this time, and am now in search of a trainer and will show him next year.

Dena, I listen to what people say and I ask TONS of questions, and know so much more. But the problem I have with the "horse people" around here is that if I ask 10 of them the same question, I get 10 different answers.

And something else I've learned, is just because someone knows how to ride a horse doesn't make them a horseperson.

Dena said...

I honestly don't know hls. I agree that there is so much conflicting information and rampant dishonesty in the equine industry that it can be terribly difficult to navigate.

SFTS said...

Just getting back in for a late lunch, wow, SO much to reply to.

PrairieFarmer wrote:
When did horses stop being fun and get so darn freakin' complicated?????

I don't think that's a naive statement at all, PF. However, I disagree that horses are complicated. The people around them? You betcha. That's where most of the problem lies.

With regard to JR's analogy, I only partially agree, because often it's the trainers who actually set the tone. Unscrupulous trainers are those who allow clients to have (or assume) these attitudes of how a horse's value is only in how many blue ribbons they can earn, as opposed to how much they can teach us (and our children). I've often been shocked at how many trainers actually don't like horses. The first time someone said that to me, I incredulously denied it. That couldn't be so, it just couldn't. Nope, I was wrong.

When it becomes more about the money and less about the horses, corruption soon follows and to Hell with the horses themselves. THAT's when things stop being fun. :(

SFTS said...

hls wrote:
Certainly the tanking economy will drive scammers and losers out of the business.
- - - - - - - -

If only this were true.

You know, I have given a great deal of thought to the idea of a regulatory body overseeing trainers and instructors, and herein lies the problem: Who will it be run by? Government schmucks? If horse people, who chooses? How are various disciplines and breeds represented? Knowing how many creeps are out there in the horse world, who's going to keep it all honest? So many questions...

There are already programs in place for instructors to become certified, such as CHA and ARICP. IMO, at this point they're more a moneymaker for those involved in the administration of the programs than anything else, which is why I've never succumbed to their offers of gaining certification.

CharlesCityCat said...

Okay, I thought of a few more:

You might be a trainer if your idea of a hot date includes a curfew of 9:30 PM so thay you can be in bed and asleep by 10:01 PM.

You might be a trainer if your idea of a luxury vehicle is your dually that has just been washed and waxed.

You might be a trainer if your idea of a manicure and pedicure includes farrier tools.

You might be a trainer if your idea of skin care includes fly spray.

You might be a trainer if your kids learn to ride a pony before they learn to ride a bike.

Just so everyone knows, I am not making fun of trainers, I know how hard the life can be and what they give up for it.

hls said...

CCC: You have been luckier than I have been. I had a trainer actually say to me and several of her other students, "you read too much." The great irony was she had just laid into us the week before about how we didn't know anything! We had a good laugh about it later, but it did make us realize that we were very different people than the trainer.

My statement was a bit of a generalization, but I do think class plays a huge role in some of the interactions I have seen in the horse world thus far.

Even the conversations on this blog reflect some of this cultural dissonance. A big complaint a lot of folks have is parents buying their kids "made" horses so the kids can win at shows. I don't disagree that part of my personal pleasure and agony of horse ownership is, in large part, learning how to get it right despite failing miserably at it all the time.

But many people want to go out and win when they compete. So why the hatred of these parents? They just want their kids to be able to go into the show ring and score a win, just as they would want Suzie or Jack to go onto the soccer field and win or to a dance competition and kick butt. And it's parents like this that help pay a lot of trainers' bills! The horse world needs people with money and enthusiasm.

I would argue that some of this anger has to do with the fact that the methods the parents use to achieve this success is ugly. After all, we are talking about a living, breathing being that should work in partnership with its human, not a tool to be used and discarded.

I would also argue that some of the anger has to do with unexamined class issues. People who have that kind of money to throw at a problem often make others feel uncomfortable. It's a fact of life that in our country class matters, more even than race, religion, or ethnicity.

SFTS said...

I disagree almost universally with Dena's 11:40 AM post in this topic today, because I fully believe that as a trainer and instructor I want my clients and students to entrust their education, their childrens' education and their horses to me, as I am the professional they are paying for that education. Just as we entrust our horses' health to our veterinarians, and our horses' hooves well being to our farriers.

Yes, frankly I like being a good friend to my clients. I want them to feel like they can call on me for any reason, ask me any question (no matter how "dumb" they think that question is) and know they will always, 100% of the time get total and complete honesty about anything they ask. I also truly enjoy helping the newbies navigate the wonderful world of horses, of horse ownership, all of it. Someone, somewhere really NEEDS that. I am happy to provide that service. Additionally, I love the teaching process itself, and assisting in the education of beginners, because I know they are the future of the horse world. Without them, we don't have much of a future, and that would be a tragedy.

>>> "If you pay for a half or an hour pay attention. And stop trying to turn a half or an hour into 2-3-20 hours of free instruction." <<<

Now this is something I can relate to, though I see two sides here. But unlike some, I have less of a problem in giving away my valuable time when I encounter someone genuinely interested in gaining knowledge. How else are they to actually learn?

JohnieRotten said...

hls

My statement was a bit of a generalization, but I do think class plays a huge role in some of the interactions I have seen in the horse world thus far.
_______________

I was a dual major in college, Biochem and Anthropology, and I was a Physics minor.

Now I am a horse trainer. My father is a physician and my mother is a school teacher. So I was brought up being taught good work ethics as well as being taught that you always do the right thing.

Yes my business is an LLC and registered with the state corp commision, there there is a reason for me to do the right thing as well.

I do not think that class really has a lot to do with it, more so, I think it is the values that you are taught as a child that makes you the person you are.

I had to work for everything that I own including my facility and not to mention I have to workto maintain it. But I was just raised that way.

CharlesCityCat said...

hls:

I certainly understand where you are coming from.

In my experience, I have never had a trainer speak badly to me, but that is just my experience. I will not deny that it does happen, although there is no excuse for something like that in my book.

In my area, the whole thing with parents who have gobs of money and try to buy their kid a year end championship is rampant. I have no problem with people who have money, spending the money, it is all in how the people involved act. I have seen too much poor sportsmanship from kids, parents and riders. That is where I am coming from. These are people who don't care about performance, they only care about the win. It can be sickening.

SFTS said...

horspoor wrote:
Or the people that believe the catalog description of a bit. Training bit = nasty shank, with a noseband, and gag action? WTF? What are you training. Or good transition bit....transitioning to what? Cut off tongue? Rearing?
- - - - - - - -

Totally, unequivocally agree. WTH is up with so much of the stuff out there in horse catalogs?? Newbies often go out and buy the "next best thing", or whatever's advertised/promoted the most, because they don't know better than to fall for the slick advertising. Case in point, one of my clients bought one of these (click here) last year. She was having trouble with her trail mare, and wanted "more control". WTF do you do with that thing and how in the Hell does it actually go on the horse's face?? There is something else to the whole get-up, that goes up over the poll to exert poll pressure. It's said to come with 'fitting instructions' when you buy it. I read them. I'm still shaking my head...

SFTS said...

Hey, I kind of like this "you might be a trainer" thing, though I disagree with the part about blood, bumping your head and rolling in the dirt. ;)

More bridles than the local tack shop and knowing proper use of them all? Check. :)

Taken more bad paper than I have passed on? Check (no pun intended). And in the interest of full disclosure yeah, I have had the unfortunate circumstances of having a couple of checks bounce. It sucks, and no I am most certainly not perfect. I am human. We all make mistakes, and am never afraid to admit that.

Actually know how to ride? Check.

Horses I train meeting me at the gate instead of running for the hills? Check. Heck, most of them shove their noses into their halters ready to begin the day's work.

Had two horses from the same client? Check big time. Right now I've got two different clients who have three horses with me, and another who has four with me. I've pretty much always had at least a couple of clients with more than one horse at a time in training with me. ;)

Always truthful and honest with my clients? Check. Often to a fault. But they all know they can and will get an honest evaluation and the truth, no matter what. Plus yes, they do all love me, and they know I'm not going to abuse their horses just for the sake of a blue ribbon...and no, none of them are idiots.

P.S. ~ Many of my peers (fellow trainers and instructors) both love me and love my work, and many of them highly recommend me.

Now enough about me ... and before a few folks jump in and start bashing, that I think it's "all about me", yadda yadda, blah blah, here is the point:

A few here, who have already repeatedly verbally expressed that they, how was that put? Rabidly dislike me, have practically made a career out of telling people I am not a trainer, that I am an idiot, that I don't know what I am doing or talking about, this, that and the other. Yet, by Dena's own criteria (so it may all have been tongue in cheek, we all knew what she was getting at), I more than qualify as a trainer. Do ANY of those things tell anyone what kind of a trainer I am, without an individual watching me work with and ride my horses? No. Not at all.

So, using that barometer, how does one like hls, for instance, go about finding the right trainer for themselves? When things like this run so rampant (and it happens in 'real life', of that I have no doubt)? It is a rhetorical question, but an important one to think about nonetheless.

SFTS said...

Most trainers I know take their businesses very seriously. While not all are LLC's or Corporations (which I don't find necessary unless a breeding operation on a large scale, in fact it can actually hurt the smaller businesses), they all have requisite licensing, insurance and memberships in pertinent professional organizations, and they all file and pay taxes.

The others, I don't consider them to be professionals. Some of them refuse to consider their endeavors a hobby. Thankfully they're the ones who are going to have to answer to the IRS about it, as well as their lack of recordkeeping skills, not me! :) I was audited once, back in 1997. It wasn't any fun, even though I always had all my ducks in a row!!

SFTS said...

hls wrote:
I was able to work peaceably with my more working class trainers. I knew that nothing riled them up more than my "damn book learning" and my excitement about sharing new ideas I had just learned about. It just aggravated them to no end. So, I learned to keep a lid on the learning I was doing on my own, as I knew it was not appreciated in way, shape or form.
- - - - - - - -

This I just cannot fathom. While I understand some trainers have a hard time appreciating their clients learning from someone other than their trainer (gasp, how COULD they? horrible...), it's something I have never understood.

I want my clients and students to bring me things they have read, books, website addresses, articles. We can discuss them, see both the good and bad points and often incorporate new ideas and concepts into what we're doing. Instead of belittling for seeking out knowledge elsewhere, turn it into a lesson in horsemanship education and make it an even better learning experience!! Hell, you as a trainer might even learn something, too.

Horses are a never ending learning process. Any good horseman knows this. Why would you deny your own students and clients the right to learn from wherever they could?

SFTS said...

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the story Dena told about the black horse and the injured little girl, hls. She would have been far better off to have had a competent, knowledgeable mentor/trainer/instructor looking out for her best interest. And as a parent, I can't understand why other parents often fail to see why it's a bad idea to run out and purchase their child that purdy horsey while failing to realize he's got the potential to be a 1000+ pound ticking time bomb without the right training and supervision, not to mention the right horsemanship education for their precious babies. Hello?!

Even the most skilled, best trainers in the world get hurt. I've known some incredible horsemen who have gotten killed because of a momentary lapse of good judgment. It happens too often for my liking.

In my opinion also, whoever sold that black horse to that child's parents should have been held if not criminally liable for her injuries, at least financially liable. That sad tale showcases the height of irresponsibility. :(

SFTS said...

Kid wrote:
The problem I have with the "horse people" around here is that if I ask 10 of them the same question, I get 10 different answers.
- - - - - - - -

That is a fact of life in the horse world. Ask ten different trainers about an issue, get ten different answers. Ask ten different farriers about how best to shoe or trim a horse, get ten different answers. Ask ten different veterinarians about an 'ideal' feeding program for your horse, get ten different answers. You can even multiply that out to 100 and have the same results.

And something else I've learned, is just because someone knows how to ride a horse doesn't make them a horseperson.
- - - - - - - -

How very, very true. Also, just because someone happens to own a horse, does not make them a horseman (or woman).

horspoor said...

Well, I'm college educated and come from a long line of college educated people. Also a long line of cattlemen, horsemen and breeders etc...

Very doubtful that I'm not going to keep up intellectually with any student that comes my way. I tend to get a great many professionals, and children of professionals as students. We all have a niche.

I also don't train and teach full time. It is something I started mainly because a friend of mine (a judge) had grandchildren she wanted to have lessons. And me being me...there was no way I'd give lessons without liability insurance. One of my instructors, and another local instructor had been after me for about two years to give lessons. So, it was not a big plan. I'd trained and worked in the horse industry, and made my living at it years ago...it wasn't something I had planned to do again.

So, I only take students on referral. I don't advertise, never have. And if they rub me the wrong way I don't reschedule them.

horspoor said...

hmmmm....yeah I guess I am a bitch. lol

JohnieRotten said...

SFTS

In reading some of your long winded posts, and they are you have to admit, you said that being a LLC could actually hurt a business more than help it. I am not sure how that can be and how you can think that. I am not a large breeding operation,though we do breed a few, rather I have done fairly well for myself.

I have never been fired, never been sued and I own my own place. So how has being an LLC hurt me in any way shape or form.

horspoor said...

Hmmm...isn't LLC a limited liability form of incorporation? How would that hurt you?

SFTS said...

Education...you know, I have two college degrees (dual major as well), mine were in Journalism and Broadcasting. I'm still using the journalism degree, but not as a first career choice (obviously). ;) My degree in broadcasting? I haven't worked in radio since about 1989. I'd have to say, it's not exactly working out for me, lol. I didn't want to deal with how corporate radio had become, I missed the "small town radio station" feel and walked away from that industry. I do miss it sometimes........

hls wrote:
A big complaint a lot of folks have is parents buying their kids "made" horses so the kids can win at shows. But many people want to go out and win when they compete. So why the hatred of these parents? They just want their kids to be able to go into the show ring and score a win, just as they would want Suzie or Jack to go onto the soccer field and win or to a dance competition and kick butt. And it's parents like this that help pay a lot of trainers' bills! The horse world needs people with money and enthusiasm.
- - - - - - - -

I have no issue with a parent buying their child a "made" horse by any stretch. But then again, "made" horses don't generally need thousands of dollars in training for them to be victorious in the show ring. Kind of defeats the purpose, you know? Those types of clients are sometimes not welcome in a trainer's barn, if the trainer is a money hungry scammer, because they can't suck all that cash out of a client with an already "made", finished horse.

Absolutely the horse world needs people with both money and that enthusiasm. Without both, which are awesome when within the same person, this industry would be in it's death throes.

JohnieRotten said...

Limited liability company. And I have no idea how the hell that has hurt me.

SFTS said...

HP, an LLC is a Limited Liability Company, not a corporation. There is a fairly big difference. They are generally thought to be more of a "formal" arrangement than a regular General Partnership or Sole Proprietorship type of business for tax purposes, though.

JR, I did not say that being an LLC will "hurt a business more than help it", I said that it can hurt smaller businesses. Maybe talk to your business manager or accountant about that. They would be able to fill you in on more of the nitty gritty details.

And for the record, I've never been sued nor fired, either in the horse industry or elsewhere, and I've not had any business issues arise out of not being a corporation or LLC.

horspoor said...

I find that many of the 'money grubbing' trainers are the ones putting the kids into the high dollars horses. Not the other way around actually. "Oh..Little Susie needs this horse to win. Her perfectly suitable horse isn't competitive. And you will need to leave the horse with me, so I can give her lessons to learn to ride this horse, and compete on it. I will also need to ride the horse X amount of days a week to keep it in show shape, so Little Susie can win on it."

But maybe it's different in my neck of the woods.

horspoor said...

OH, I've been fired. lol Can't say it hurt my feelings...they just beat me to the punch. Oh, and they did try to come back later. UMP NOPE! Sorry no room in my schedule.

horspoor said...

Let me see, I think I can remember he exact quote: "I graciously invite you to ride my horse again." Don't you just love it. Graciously invites me to fix the mess she and the person after me created. No going, no how, no way.

JohnieRotten said...

SFTS

I did talk to my accountant who is a CPA. He recommended I become an LLC. It has not hurt my business at all and I know a lot of small business LLCs. My farrier is a LLC, a girl I know that has a all feed outlet business is an LLC.

So again, how does that hurt a business or are you talking out your ass?

SFTS said...

But high dollar horses don't necessarily translate into made horses. Two different animals as a general rule. Many of those high dollar horses are also high strung and in need of remaining in the (money grubbing) trainers' barns for extended periods of time, if not always, because the child they are purchased for has never been taught how to actually ride before.

SFTS said...

WTF is the bee up your ass tonight, JR? Talking out my ass?? Huh??

I merely explained my understanding after having extensively discussed it with someone who has researched the issue.

My financial advisors have stated it was not in our best interest as a training business to become an LLC, which we looked into last year. It was advised against.

I'm glad you think it's helped your business. More power to you.

horspoor said...

Well, you're in different states. Have differenct accountants, and do very different things. JR owns his place. Your situations are really quite different.

JohnieRotten said...

Sfts

I am an LLC because I own my own facility. That may be the differences between our businesses.

There is no bee up my ass. I asked for an answer to a question.

SFTS said...

You didn't ask a question, JR, you made a snarky, snide, obnoxious comment directed at me for no reason.

I never said it had hurt YOUR business.

Did you somehow miss that?

HP, you are right about the differences in our situations, though owning the facility versus renting has no bearing whatsoever. Look at how many businesses do not own their stores or the shopping centers they are located in, look at how many incorporated horse rescues rent as opposed to own the farms they operate from.

I'm about to head off to bed. It's been a long day, I am tired and I'm really not in the mood to deal with this sort of bullshit tonight.

JohnieRotten said...

Sfts

asset ownership has a lot to do llcs. And also I am the sole owner of my business so being a limited liabilty company works for me.

horspoor said...

Owning vs Leasing is actually huge. You can't lose something you don't own. Which is the purpose of limited liability. One of the reasons I referred to it in relation to a corporation, as it has the quality of 'limited liability' much the same as incorporating. Probably incorrect verbage, but quite correct in how it works.

It becomes its own entity (the entity gets sued, not the individual) in much the same way a corporation does, also providing income tax benefits. It is a pretty good option in a sole ownership, or partnership. Sorry, used to work a great deal in estate planning...the best ways to protect your assets. Insurance is a pretty wide field.

Now an accountant, or an atty could explain it much better. I was never foolish enough to set up a plan for a client without their account and/or atty involved.

Cut-N-Jump said...

sfts-
>>JR, I did not say that being an LLC will "hurt a business more than help it", I said that it can hurt smaller businesses.<<

>>You didn't ask a question, JR, you made a snarky, snide, obnoxious comment directed at me for no reason.<<


Ok so he asked How it can hurt a smaller business? You said it can, please just answer the question.

Dena said...

Hey kid I had to go get hay. And I thought about what you said about 10 different people having 10 different answers to the same question.
I know huh!?!
This is what I have learned to do in that situation.
I review all of the information.
See if any of it corrolates.
And then, I make a decision based on my own common sense.
What seems the most right to me you know?

hls my Father did have to pay as did the insurance company.
Because his daughter refused to write an affadavit that did not include the words "while a very experienced rider would be best suited to this horse a beginner never would be."

And the girl bought a new horse and to the best of my knowledge never did take a lesson.

And yes, it is hard to find someone you can trust to have your best interests at the forefront.

First off a trainer/instructor who is suspended from the USEF would be knocked off my list for that alone.
Regardless of the explanation offered.
If I were a newbie. Rule breakers are not who I want to be learning from.

And as a newbie how could you possibly have the ability to look for that suspension list?

It was only ever admitted after several posters provided links to the information.
Never was that information volunteered.

Secondly "never" been fired? A better answer would be I haven't been fired recently.

You shouldn't have to do a background check on a trainer or a instructor.

That said, will you be leaving your tack in their care? Your horse?
Writing them a check that has your personal account information on it?

And how safe is your horse if the facility isn't owned by the trainer/instructor?

What happens if they do get fired and the barn owner says they were never paid the board portion that you paid to the trainer?

A trainer who is not reasonably financially sound may be putting their best interest(your money)ahead of their responsibility to you.

A transient trainer/instructor most likely is not properly insured to protect themselves or you. Or your property.

A transient trainer/instructor would also be very difficult to pursue legally if things went bad.

I am sure I will be accused of bashing. And there will be much hot air to follow.
But in very real terms of exactly what a newbie should be taking into consideration?
This covers a lot.

A newbie should not be taking chances on someone that is not stable and of longstanding.
In a word, established.

Owning a facility vs. having temporary privileges in a facility are two different things.

When dealing with someone who owns a facility you the newbie have a measure of security if recourse ever becomes an issue.

I have never claimed to be an instructor.
I work with horses that are not generally speaking for beginners or novices.
Not even when I am done.

Because here is another key to the language.
A well and highly trained horse is not necessarily the same thing as a well broke beginner horse.

Beginners and novices do not have the knowledge or skill required to ride a highly trained sport horse.
These animals are trained to perform not babysit.

So in all honesty hls I have been trying to give you the keys to protecting yourself as a new to horses individual.

I do not sugarcoat things.

I am not sneering. I am warning. In a harsh tone.

Because newbies are also called rubes.
And newbies are babes in the woods.
And there are a whole lot of wolves in this game.

To tell you or anyone else differently would be to lie.

But there are good people out there.
It just takes time to find them.

I apologize again if you thought I was sneering at you or being superior at your expense.
Really wasn't my intent.

CCC you are good at this you know you are a trainer if game.ROFLLMAO

HP I would like to know more about comprehensive coverage.

I carry six figure liability protections and the first number is a 3 not a 1.

JR a bee up you butt??? Rhymes with flea.

hls said...

Dena, thanks for the sensible advice. Much of it I've learned the hard way...by trial and error. And at great expense to myself and my beloved horse. (And yes, I absolutely bought the wrong first horse. Maybe that's just a rite of passage for all new horse owners? Luckily mine isn't rank and dangerous, but b*tchy and exasperating and makes me stretch far out of my comfort zone.)

I do think I would be a better rider right now if I hadn't had to fumble around and figure things out, but at least I was getting to ride!

JR, your credentials are impressive, and I don't wonder if I hadn't met you five years ago if I would be a much better and much more confident rider!

My goal was not to thread hijack or try to beat my one point into the ground, so I won't belabor my point regarding class. I will add that I do think many of you here may be exceptions, not rules, when it comes to education, ethical behavior and general business practices. That makes sense, of course, since you have congregated here to discuss horses and horse training techniques. I searched in vain for a few minutes this morning to try to find a study that correlates education and income (another important factor in class) to areas of expertise in the horse industry, but I couldn't find one. (If anyone knows of one, I would love to look at it.) Without those numbers, I really AM just generalizing!

I just have to ask, JR. Do you find the physics minor particularly useful when riding a bucking horse? Let's see..."To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" or how about, ""Force equals mass times acceleration"? ;-)

OK, I'm off to ride my naughty little mare. We had a big rainstorm last night, so my homemade arena should be very, very interesting today.

SFTS said...

I understand the difference between property ownership and renting/leasing. ;) However, I also did rely on someone I trust to assist in the research on what was the best thing to do for myself and my business. That said, I'm not a lawyer or an accountant. Which is why I enlisted another's help!

Here are a few links in regard to LLC's, and asset protection in relation to the business:

http://floridaassetprotection.blogs.com/alperlaw/2007/07/pitfalls-of-llc.html
http://www.aicpa.org/pubs/taxadv/online/0299clin.htm
http://www.llccorporationblog.com/2007/10/llcs-and-real-property-benefit.html

Some of it's really quite interesting.

You're right HP, about some of the advantages. My MIL works for a legal firm and they do a lot of estate planning, it's a really complicated area. Having just gone through four years of probate, even when there was a living trust involved, what a nightmare!!

CnJ, again, not being an attorney or an accountant myself, I'm the wrong person to ask that question. All I did was relate information that was provided to me and what we based our decision on. It related to tax implications moreso than liability itself, just to be clear.

Most of the trainers and horse businesses I know/know of that have elected to become a formal business entity have gone to traditional incorporation as opposed to an LLC. I am not entirely sure why that is, I can only surmise that it was the better way to go, but once more, not being an attorney or a CPA myself I am not the one to ask in that regard. ;)

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
And yes, it is hard to find someone you can trust to have your best interests at the forefront.

SFTS writes ~ Indeed it can be, and an individual with a history of drug addiction and mental illness to the point where the state took their children away would not be a good choice. Since that information was not provided, how would an unsuspecting potential client know? That's a very frightening thing to discover about someone. Such an individual would be knocked off my list immediately, especially if they seemed to have continual problems with the law and going to jail, present year included. Scary stuff.

Dena wrote:
First off a trainer/instructor who is suspended from the USEF would be knocked off my list for that alone.
Regardless of the explanation offered.
If I were a newbie. Rule breakers are not who I want to be learning from.


SFTS writes ~ When someone is suspended for drugging horses, abuse or violations of the sportsman's code of conduct, they should definitely be crossed off that list. If the suspension was related to a simple issue of a one time financial mistake, such in no way goes to the abilities or ethics of the trainer. But then, people flock back to the 'bad guys' when their suspensions are over, so that theory is blown out of the water, too.

Dena wrote:
Secondly "never" been fired? A better answer would be I haven't been fired recently.

SFTS writes ~ Perhaps the quoted poster is speaking from personal experience?

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
You shouldn't have to do a background check on a trainer or a instructor.

SFTS writes ~ When there are 'trainers' out there who have a long history of substance abuse and mental illness, it definitely behooves the client to have that background check performed. Speaking for myself, I have DOJ clearance from a Livescan in order to participate in 4H activities. Were I the devil incarnate and dangerous to children that would not have happened. Just saying. ;)

Dena wrote:
That said, will you be leaving your tack in their care? Your horse?
Writing them a check that has your personal account information on it?
And how safe is your horse if the facility isn't owned by the trainer/instructor?
What happens if they do get fired and the barn owner says they were never paid the board portion that you paid to the trainer?
A trainer who is not reasonably financially sound may be putting their best interest(your money)ahead of their responsibility to you.


SFTS writes ~ Owning one's facility (or claiming to do so) has little to do with the skill or abilities of a trainer or instructor, it is also well established that a vast majority of trainers do not own their own facility. As a consideration for a potential client, a long history in the industry with many satisfied clients (including many who are in law enforcement as a career), happy, healthy, sound horses and students who have done exceedingly well in their respective endeavors are excellent criteria.

Dena wrote:
A transient trainer/instructor most likely is not properly insured to protect themselves or you. Or your property.
A transient trainer/instructor would also be very difficult to pursue legally if things went bad.
A newbie should not be taking chances on someone that is not stable and of longstanding.
In a word, established.
Owning a facility vs. having temporary privileges in a facility are two different things.
When dealing with someone who owns a facility you the newbie have a measure of security if recourse ever becomes an issue.


SFTS writes ~ See the above. :)

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
I have never claimed to be an instructor.
I work with horses that are not generally speaking for beginners or novices.
Not even when I am done.


SFTS writes ~ The mark of a truly skilled trainer is to ensure that each horse owned by even a 'beginner or novice' brought in for training, when finished, is easily ridden by the owner. If a self-professed trainer cannot accomplish this, they have no business calling themselves a trainer of any sort.

Dena wrote:
Because here is another key to the language.
A well and highly trained horse is not necessarily the same thing as a well broke beginner horse.
Beginners and novices do not have the knowledge or skill required to ride a highly trained sport horse.
These animals are trained to perform not babysit.


SFTS writes ~ If the trainer is also a skilled communicator, teacher, instructor they have the uncanny ability to pair "highly trained horses" with riders who began as beginners or novices. Happens all the time.

Dena wrote:
I would like to know more about comprehensive coverage.
I carry six figure liability protections and the first number is a 3 not a 1.


SFTS writes ~ All trainers I know carry $1,000,000 in trainer's liability coverage and $1,000,000 in instructor's liability coverage in addition to Care, Custody and Control coverage for horses in their care. $300,000 is not generally held or thought to be enough.

Kid said...

OH MY!!

Kid said...

Dena, no matter what hay I buy, I sniff every flake I give my horse. Someone gave him bad hay where he was being "trained" the first time and we ended up walking him for 6 hrs. The mare in the previous stall got some too, same thing, and she had a two week old foal at her side. Very Scary.

I thank God to this day that I caught it. The woman that fed him is supposedly a "horsewoman", who btw was feeding for a day while the BO was out of town.

JohnieRotten said...

Hls

Yes actually I do find physics a big help in everything I do in training horses. Actually, if you go over toy training blog Mr Rottens Neighborhood, you will see that I teach a lot of the mechanics of training ie how tansitions work, how to get a horse to use his hind end etc.

I have always taught my students to break down the why's and how's so when they are in the show ring the have more of an advntage. The reality of my job is toale th better horsemen so they are not relying on me as a trainer foe the rest of their lives. And understanding how things work is a big part of that. Once you learn the basic mechanics, training is easy and you do not need all of the extras that people like to put on a horse.

GoLightly said...

scroll, scroll, scroll...scroll, scroll, scroll...scroll, scroll, scroll...scroll, scroll, scroll...scroll, scroll, scroll...scroll, scroll, scroll...

My finger is too old for this.

Way cool, JR. I love the physical sciences.
Don't giggle, NCC.
Horses are bio-mechanical miracles.

hls said...

JR: Indeed, very cool.

I'm often the student who's pondering the why behind the what, although I learn best by kinetically experiencing the thing I'm supposed to be doing. I have just ventured onto your other blog, and I did leave a comment under one of the older threads about buddy/barn sour horses. (One of my mare's "best" qualities.) I plan on exploring it more at my leisure.

I'm enjoying the discourse here and on the other blog. Although I'm glad the more rabid personal attacks have subsided. That kind of stuff tends to leave blisters on my soul. I guess I'm too sensitive.

GoLightly said...

"Once you learn the basic mechanics, training is easy and you do not need all of the extras that people like to put on a horse."
Standing O!!
Here, HERE!!!

Wow, Einstein, look out!

BringItOn said...

SFTS writes ~ The mark of a truly skilled trainer is to ensure that each horse owned by even a 'beginner or novice' brought in for training, when finished, is easily ridden by the owner. If a self-professed trainer cannot accomplish this, they have no business calling themselves a trainer of any sort.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your comment in regards to dena's comment is just plain stupid.

There are many, many horses who simply don't tolerate the things that a novice/beginner may inadvertently do to them while trying to learn to ride said horse. There are also horses out there that are smart enough to learn how to get away with things when being ridden by a beginner/novice that they simply won't try with someone more experienced. Why would you ever think that all horses are equal and that anyone should be able to ride them, simply because they are well-trained?

A GOOD trainer-self-professed or not, knows horses well enough to realize when they are working with something that will or will not make a good beginner/novice horse.

But then there are trainers who are perfectly willing to tell the owners that they CAN make them suitable for their level and simply keep the horse for months and months, sometimes more than a year. Those types are pretty much crooks in my book. All they are doing is taking the beginner/novice for a ride and cleaning out their bank accounts.

Is that the kind of "trainer" you profess to be SFTS? Swaggering and telling people that you can train a horse to fit any rider-when in reality the beginner/novice would really just like to have a nice, quiet horse that THEY can ride, relatively quickly.

horspoor said...

For me I have to understand why this conformation works better for this discipline, than that conformation. It wasn't something I understood 20 years ago. That said, correct is correct...there are going to be variations within correct.

Why do you want a sloping shoulder vs a steep shoulder? Why can some horses with a steepish shoulder still be freer moving...and why are some with a sloping shoulder more bound up? I think it is the angle of the humorus. Whether is is a more open angle or closed angle.

Personally, I don't care for a long backed horse. However there are some really nice ones, and some of the ladies I know prefer riding them. They feel it is easier, smoother, and things don't happen as quickly.

What do you all think? What type, or look do you like?

Personally I don't think all horses can be beginner or kid horses. Maybe I'm just not that good. But I can't take a Ferrari and turn it into Escort Wagon.

Although, I have been accused of owning and buying two strokes, and making them look like a four stroke. lol (You motorcycle people will get that one).

BringItOn said...

JR-I've never thought of maneuvers in terms of physics. I guess it's my lack of higher education showing. No offense hls-I'm just ribbing ya a little bit.;)

But I've pretty much figured out that I can train a horse to do anything if I just break the maneuvers down to the basic mechanics of the movement. Much like ball-room dancing. Slow and careful repitition of exact footfalls until they become second nature. After that, the horse's natural ability, athleticism and willingness to do whatever is being asked just takes over and they get as good as they can at it. Some get great, some just get adequate. But they can all do it to some extent.

I've never understood why some people want to make it sound so complicated?

JohnieRotten said...

HP

Sounds like that could be the next topic for discussion.

Bringiton

They make is sound complicated so the can make more money.

But like I always say, my job is to make it easier for my clients!

BringItOn said...

I just so happened to find the absolute best quote about horses I think I have ever read.

Sean Clancy's quote was printed in the August '09 issue of the Ameria's Horse;
"People ask me, *What are horses like?* It's taken me a lifetime of riding, training, writing and betting to finally home in on an answer.
*Horses are just like people; there are smart ones, dumb ones, miserable ones, honest ones, simple ones, cheats, freaks, leaders and laggards. They have good days, bad days and plenty of average days. They can be brilliant one minute, horrible the next. They can remember something that happened a year ago and forget what they learned yesterday. They'll walk placidly into a metal starting gate that clangs and rings when the doors open, and then be scared of a bucket that wasn't there yesterday.
And we think that we know what's going to happen this afternoon?*

Dena said...

I learned a long time ago that when you throw a rope to someone who has dug a very deep hole for themselves they will do one of two things with it.
Pull themselves out of the hole. Or hang themselves with the rope.

Like the dual degree individual who spends so much time broadcasting her self-professed talents.
The same one who does not even have a HS Diploma.

Research is your friend. A person should research their lies before telling them if they want to stand a chance of being believed in their attempts to defraud others.

I have always been very clear in that I have a 9th grade formal education.
It is what it is.

Kid I am very particular about my hay.
I sniff too.lol

BringItOn matching hot and or highstrung horses with a beginner is a grossly irresponsible act.
A 4yr old powerhouse built to fly and trained to a light touch is not the place for a beginner to start.
That is basic common sense.
That she would state differently goes a long way towards establishing her true motivations.

I would not put a beginner on anything I would not put my own son on.
And I am not even an instructor.

I will hear from HP on the adequacy of my insurance protections.
Because I am sure like many others that are actually familiar with the subject that 1,000,000 is standard on one type of liability, which, I have.
But I was speaking of a different subsection under the general liability umbrella.

So in the interest of continuing a good subject and not being derailed.

You know you might be a trainer if you have spent more time being thrown through the fencing than laying on it.

SFTS said...

horspoor wrote:
Personally I don't think all horses can be beginner or kid horses. Maybe I'm just not that good. But I can't take a Ferrari and turn it into Escort Wagon.
- - - - - - - -

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. Most of us would not insinuate otherwise, because we have probably all run into horses that would not make suitable horses for beginners. Childrens' horses on the other hand can be a different story, as there are a number of levels of skill with kids. I have had kids as students who I have no doubt could outride me, at least will be able to. :)

"Bring It On", no, the comment is not 'stupid'. If a beginner brings me a horse, as a trainer it is my job to ensure that horse is safe for them to ride, or at the very least counsel them in purchasing a more suitable horse.

>>> "Is that the kind of "trainer" you profess to be SFTS? Swaggering and telling people that you can train a horse to fit any rider-when in reality the beginner/novice would really just like to have a nice, quiet horse that THEY can ride, relatively quickly." <<<

Judgmentally talk out your ass much?

It is my job to both do the best I can for my clients, and I will always try to do so. I don't produce thirty day wonders. If after a reasonable amount of time it becomes clear that the horse is not suited for the beginner/novice rider, my advice is to ALWAYS find a horse more suitable to the owner's needs.

A trainer simply cannot control what clients bring to us to train. We can only do our best. Having been in this business for 30 years, there are many things I have learned ~ one of those things is that age old adage of "the customer is always right". Well, they are insomuch as if they have decided they want a specific horse, want that horse trained for their discipline of choice and refuse to listen to anyone telling them otherwise, they know the way out the front gate and I will gladly escort them there.

>>> "I've never understood why some people want to make it sound so complicated?" <<<

Those who make training horses sound complicated are those who would much rather suck money out of their clients as opposed to telling them the truth about their horses, and often their skill level [to ride such horses]. If a client pulls their horse because I gave them an honest evaluation and opinion, so be it.

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
Like the dual degree individual who spends so much time broadcasting her self-professed talents. The same one who does not even have a HS Diploma.
- - - - - - - -

Wow, are you saying that JR is really a her, and he doesn't have a HS diploma? Who knew?!

flying fig said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dena said...

hls I read what you had to say about class structure and the very real part it plays.
And did not disagree with what you presented.

I think the hardest part to swallow for some of us is, that no matter how great your horse is, and no matter how good you are, you still have to pay to play.

We as trainers may be able to find that diamonds in the rough.
Facet it and shine it into the sharpest gem in the game, but, in the end if we do not have the money to campaign and politesse our way to the top?
It is what it is.

And the simple truth is, on a professional level we do, to the best of our abilities and based on, our own individual ethics, play to win.

I will say that there are some wealthy owners that do appreciate the contributions of the trainers and do reward them.
Winning a title and receiving the $250,000 check from the owner is not unheard of.

It isn't the wealthy owners fault that we were not born independently wealthy.
But if we had been would we still be trainers?
Who knows?
No one ever promised that life would be fair. I have accepted that.
I build for people with money and ability exceeding my own.
I like it like that.
To me it is kind of like being a songwriter.

And there is the trade off when people share information and personal experience.

I can't speak for everyone hls but my first horse was the most inappropriate start for me on the planet.

Beginner and green horse. I might have qualified as an advanced novice on a well broke horse. But on a green horse I was a rank beginner.
Learning was the equivalent of self-preservation.
The ground is very hard when the horse is 15.3 and you are 8.

horspoor said...

I have a student that is horse shopping. You would not believe the number of horses they have emailed me from DreamHorse, CraigsList, and sites I'm unfamiliar with.

Of course the little girl would love color (she's 10)...preferably a black and white paint. The last one they sent me was a 4 year old stallion, that was started, but reportedly a total sweetheart...UH HUH.

I emailed her back, this is my exact response to the mom:

"OH HELL NO!"

flying fig said...

*oops - hit the wrong button for some reason*

I'm with you on the endless scrolling, GL. I was going to post a while back and then read the usual crap starting up - and lost interest. The same old song - over and over again.

But anyhoo... as a side note - MANY trainers do not own their own facility - and thus that would not be a determining factor for me. Many trainers lease out half of a barn or farm to use... I am not sure why that would be an issue. It is more about the trainer themselves - and not the fact that they may not "own".

Owning your own place is not necessarily the mark of a great trainer. I could post a long list of BNTs as examples...

Years ago, I knew a guy back in B.C. that was good (once upon a time) - he worked on a cattle ranch... rented a small cabin there and went up and down the valley helping people with their horses. When he married into a nice place with a big covered arena etc., he turned into a self-styled Monty Roberts and quickly became a PITA in my opinion.

He still has his training vids on YouTube. Every so often I watch a couple of them for a laugh... the filly he is starting in the round pen came from the farm I was working on at the time. I foaled her out. I handled her ever day. I halter broke her. She would come running when she was called and stick her nose in the halter. I had done a lot of ground work with her before she went to star in this video series. In the videos, you can CLEARLY see that she has been clipped - her bridle path is obvious... and yet the PITA claims that she is an untouched 3 year old off the range. Because of course you can find half-Arabian NSH fancy pintos roaming the vast pastures of Rocky Mountain ranches. Jerk. He notes the filly is head shy... that was news to me... she loved ear rubs and getting the top of her head massaged...

IOW - he portrayed her as something he was not - just so he would look good. He had a 4 year old of ours up there at the same time... and when I dropped by to check on the two fillies (sneaky of me, huh) he was tellng a non-horse guy who was wanting to sponsor him about how the 4 year old was so very head shy she must have been beaten.

Oh really? I said coldly - since when? I have known her all her life ... and went into the paddock with her, called her... she came trotting up and enjoyed a nice ear massage. I could even slide my fingers into her ears and rub.

The PITA was not pleased with me. Making him look like a bag of hot air in front of his benefactor...

This guy did have the skill. I saw it. But somewhere along the way it became more about him and his image as opposed to great horsemanship/horse sense...

nccatnip said...

FF- you are not necessarily wrong about trainers owning their own facility but I think there is a lot to be said about SOME sort of stabilty.
Cruising from farm to farm on a house on wheels ain't it.

Dena said...

You know you might be a trainer if you have to ask someone else where your whip is.

SFTS said...

>>> "MANY trainers do not own their own facility - and thus that would not be a determining factor for me.

Many trainers lease out half of a barn or farm to use... I am not sure why that would be an issue. It is more about the trainer themselves - and not the fact that they may not "own".

Owning your own place is not necessarily the mark of a great trainer. I could post a long list of BNTs as examples...
" <<<

Very well said, FF. Thank you.

hls said...

Dena said: I think the hardest part to swallow for some of us is, that no matter how great your horse is, and no matter how good you are, you still have to pay to play.

We as trainers may be able to find that diamonds in the rough. Facet it and shine it into the sharpest gem in the game, but, in the end if we do not have the money to campaign and politesse our way to the top? It is what it is.


****

That's a good way to verbalize the discontent I have seen from some trainers, that sense that if they only had more money or influence or ability to travel in the circles that are influential, their natural talent at training and riding horses would allow them to win and to gain recognition.

I do think it's sad that money and class so often limit what genuinely talented people can achieve, in horses and elsewhere. The idea that the uber-rich are more talented or more worthy because of their wealth just isn't true; but god knows, money helps in every regard.

An acquaintance when I was an undergraduate once asked me if I felt ashamed of my family's background. Nothing could have been further from the truth. In fact, the only thing that caused me and still causes me a very real sense of shame and personal debt was the knowledge of how hard my very working class mother (who barely graduated from high school and who stood and cheered for me when I received my graduate degree) worked and still works to help me achieve my place in this world. I owe her every debt, even if she often doesn't understand who I've become.

Dena said...

Owning matters. To say differently is silly.

Owning speaks to stability.
You can't get kicked out of
your own barn.

You make the rules in your
own barn.

You are responsible for what
happens in your own barn.

Having trainers, instructors, and a barn owner?
Leasing space?
It is one thing if the trainer and the instrustor are employees of the barn owner.
Liability still rests squarely with the barn owner.

There is a lot of gray area in a trainer leasing half of a barn.

And instructors who are not employed by the barn owner should carry their own liability coverage.

If I own a property I want to know who is on my property and why.
At all times.
As it is my property.

A trainer that leases space presumably goes home at some point in the day.
Do the horses in the trainers half of the barn then become the responsibility of the barn owner?
To guard and protect?

No there is a difference between owning and renting space.
Owning provides greater security to clients.

Not owning does not mean that you do not have gifts or skill as a trainer.

It raises other questions. Like if this is what you do why don't you have your own place?

If, you are younger it may be a question that answers itself.

If, you are claiming to be a premiere expert with 30+years as a trainer, in that, this is the career you have devoted your entire adult life to?
Well that is a whole other can of beans.

And if your presentation cannot bear even minimal scrutiny?
It is self-explanatory that you might be a better talker than a doer.

Liars cannot by definition be trusted.
I have never found it necessary to lie about my education level.
I do NOT have either a HS Diploma or a college degree.
The horses don't seem to mind.

SFTS that you yourself cannot even face the truth of your life and situations says a lot.

You do NOT have a HS Diploma. It stands to reason that you do not have a college degree of any type.

Whatever I have done in my life applies to me.
Not you.
Trying to earn your acceptance at what you perceive to be the sacrifice of mine will never work.

And as for not being able to control what clients bring you?
WTF!?!
You don't evaluate the horses either? Just take whatever comes your way?

I don't help people to do something that they should not be doing in the first place.

Because that is gross misrepresentation. And has the potential to be dangerous to all parties.

But hey that is just me.

You know you might be a trainer if you have the wisdom to accept that not all horses can be best trained by you.

GoLightly said...

applause, applause, to Dena & FF.

Exactly. My cousin is still in training & teaching, she's bought a house, but does not own the current facility she teaches out of. It's a real vagabond lifestyle for those that come up from the less fortunate ranks.
Pay scale isn't high, if you factor in hours and no benefits and no insurance for injuries to yourself..
It all costs mega-bucks.

Unless you're an idiot, and keep the horse in your kitchen. Or something. Don't laugh, I bet it's been done.

Our own Lamazing Eric started out that way. From a workin' class background.
Helluva struggle it was, for him too.
Almost a year since he won gold.. Since I quit coffee.
ANYway.

Cousin found a wonderful family that built her a beautiful facility, then kicked her out when they tired of their new toys. Yup, they quit. No particular reason, just time for the next new thing.
Attention span of a squirrel.
Money!

Money, it's a hit, don't give me no goody good BS.
(humming Pink Floyd, your fault, HP)

It absolutely has something to do with the snark factor.
We'll call it the SF, for short, m'kay?
The "Oh, you don't know THAT??" crowd.
Hey, there's lots of stuff left to learn, 4ever.

That's why I think having actually relevant horse programs, (which have already been writtenPCMcough), would be a great place to at least start to guide people in the right direction.

Like Stormy's old owner. Would she have suddenly decided to buy a horse, if she'd had any advance knowledge, at all?

Can't horses at least get a mention, in schools??

This is a horse. It is big. It can kill you. Stormy's owner was so lucky she didn't end up paralyzed.

Dogs deserve a walk.
Kudos to y'all.

Good to see ya, FF!
How's Nor?

You might be a trainer if you stand/sleep/sit/eat like you're on a horse, 24/7.

Bandy-legged bunch.
<")
in' out.

fernvalley01 said...

You might be a trainer if...
You don't leave a horse tied standing waiting for you while you enter a pissing contest online with any and everybody that disagrees with you .

Yup I know cheap shot , but mother goose woman STFU!!!!

SFTS said...

I don't have time to address anything else at the moment, because I have horses to work and children to give riding lessons to.

However, this amazes me:

Dena wrote:
You do NOT have a HS Diploma. It stands to reason that you do not have a college degree of any type.
- - - - - - - -

Really now? And whom would it be that passed on this erroneous information to you? Did you get hold of my transcripts? That would be considered identity theft. I believe that to be a felony. Hmmm.

Carry on.

BringItOn said...

Okay, I tried to resist, but since it already went there.;O

You might be a trainer if you frequent the local hardware store in preparation for a show. "sir, oh sir, do you have any sandpaper that comes in a gravel grit?"

Dena said...

SFTS I do not think it was your intent to gain my pity.
But you have.

I realize that your personal dysfunction is so deeply rooted that nothing I or anyone else says will shake you free from it.
And that is very sad.

To be committed it must be proven that you are a danger to self or others.
And/or that you are unable to provide for your own most basic needs. Food, shelter, and clothing.

I was involuntarily committed once.
Thank God.
I was self-destructive and completely out of control.
It goes without saying that I was also in a tremendous amount of pain.
I was committed on the basis of being a danger to self and others.

You strike me as a woman who no longer truly believes she has the ability to succeed at her dream.
So, you have set your anger and sights upon destroying the dreams/realities of others.

You are constantly threatening to sue people.
Including, but not limited to, the very people who took you and your family in. When you were unable to provide for your most basic needs and those of your family.

You have threatened to physically harm or kill a child you perceived as being your competition.

You have no ability to control yourself and abide by boundries.
Even when a court has ordered that you do so.

I am truly sorry for you. I no longer believe that you have any real ability to be or do differently.
Or productively.
For yourself and your family.

Because you are very intelligent you have an above average ability to deflect by antagonizing others.
I should have recognized that sooner.

I apologize for that. I thought I was arguing with someone who had the ability to save themselves.

But you are correct. Based on your disability it was just another attack.

I sincerely wish and hope for the best for you and your's.
And I will not engage you further.
Because again, you are correct.
I should have known better.
And to do so would be a deliberate cruelty.

nccatnip said...

Minor technical detail- Identity Theft is only if you actually use the said document to fraudently assume the identity of the owner.

I highly doubt that Dena feels the need. She seems pretty secure in her own right.

I am also surprised that you were not aware of the actual defination of the term, STFS, with all of you legal bantering across the WWW. GO ahead, google on.

flying fig said...

>>Owning matters. To say differently is silly.<<

No, it isn't. That is just wrong in so many ways... and a complete insult to some of the best trainers I have known.
So Dena - you feel that unless you OWN your own place, your horsemanships skills are garbage? That is BS - plain and simple - and speaks to a certain amount of snobbery. Just wow....

Using property ownership as a way to gauge someone's level of equine expertise is ridiculous - we see that demonstrated constantly. The guy I told you about in my last post was a far better trainer before he had his own place...

The left half of our upper barn has been leased out to trainers a few times - with different terms depending on that trainer's needs. The trainer brings in boarders. The trainer brings in business. Sometimes the barn staff does the chores for the trainer - sometimes everything on that side of the barn is the trainer's responsibility. It works very well - the same way it has worked on many pther farms for many decades. Some trainers simply prefer NOT to have their own place. It does not mean they are lousy horsemen as you suggest. As GL pointed out - many trainers go that route - and some stay there. One example being big H/J barns that go south for the winter... why own a place you do not use for half the year?

And what facility does not want all the stalls filled and money coming in - especially these days?

On another note - it is not just SFTS that needs to rein it in at times... Dena, for someone whp lectures about how others should not spread tales on the interwebz and make random accusations etc. - you seem to delight in it at times. This time, TRULY try to let it go. My scrolling finger is in a splint.... and I doubt that I am the only one who is weary of this endless squeaking hamster wheel... that both "sides" keep running...

Dena said...

"Not owning does not mean that you do not have gifts or skill as a trainer."

This is stated in the very same post as what you pulled your copy and paste reference from FF.

I guess you missed it huh? Maybe too busy looking for a point to pick?

SFTS said...

hls wrote:
That's a good way to verbalize the discontent I have seen from some trainers, that sense that if they only had more money or influence or ability to travel in the circles that are influential, their natural talent at training and riding horses would allow them to win and to gain recognition.

I do think it's sad that money and class so often limit what genuinely talented people can achieve, in horses and elsewhere. The idea that the uber-rich are more talented or more worthy because of their wealth just isn't true; but god knows, money helps in every regard.

- - - - - - - -

I don't see that as a matter of class, though money unfortunately does have a great deal to do with it. If a trainer is genuinely talented and gifted and they are afforded some lucky breaks, the sky really is the limit.

Money definitely affords folks the ability to travel in those "upper echelon" circles, and can gain a trainer influence and recognition. But it's up to the individual trainer to know how to properly deal with all that comes with it, and handle it accordingly.

Some of us are content with how our lives and businesses have grown and expanded, though I would be lying if I didn't say I wish I had a few National Championship trophies sitting on the mantle. ;)

SFTS said...

nccatnip wrote:
Minor technical detail- Identity Theft is only if you actually use the said document to fraudently assume the identity of the owner.
- - - - - - - -

Simple deductive reasoning, catnip.

Dena has stated that she knows something as "fact" and has presented this tidbit as such here. Either she was told this information by an unrelated third party who has no clue what she is speaking of, or she fraudulently obtained my transcripts by impersonating me in order to gain access to them.

Which is it? Though not surprisingly of course she failed to answer the question.

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
And as for not being able to control what clients bring you?
WTF!?!
You don't evaluate the horses either? Just take whatever comes your way?

I don't help people to do something that they should not be doing in the first place.

Because that is gross misrepresentation. And has the potential to be dangerous to all parties.

- - - - - - - -

Dena has once again ridden the reading comprehension FAIL bus.

I realize that your personal dysfunction is so deeply rooted that nothing I or anyone else says will shake you free from it.
- - - - - - - -

LOL...okay. And you received your doctorate from....?

To be committed it must be proven that you are a danger to self or others.
And/or that you are unable to provide for your own most basic needs. Food, shelter, and clothing.
I was involuntarily committed once.

- - - - - - - -

Thanks for letting us know that. Really. Srsly.

I've never been committed, either involuntarily or otherwise. Oh, and we can provide for not only our "basic needs" (you know, like, well, you know...) but the needs of all four of our horses and the cat. Wow, who woulda thunk it?

You strike me as a woman who no longer truly believes she has the ability to succeed at her dream.
So, you have set your anger and sights upon destroying the dreams/realities of others.

- - - - - - - -

My dreams come true every day, and do so on a daily basis. :) How about you? Oh, that's right. You're the seek and destroyer here. Gotcha.

You are constantly threatening to sue people.
Including, but not limited to, the very people who took you and your family in. When you were unable to provide for your most basic needs and those of your family.

- - - - - - - -

Nope, sorry, BZZZT. Wrong again. We sued those "wonderful" people (*eyeroll*) because they have stolen from us, slandered us and so much more. But of course, since you only heard one side of the story, you don't have the facts straight. And for the record? We won. Because the truth and justice were [are] on our side in this matter.

You have threatened to physically harm or kill a child you perceived as being your competition.
- - - - - - - -

WTF are you smoking? The above NEVER HAPPENED.

I would suggest VERY strongly that you cease spreading such libel, or you may soon find yourself in a California courtroom defending yourself
.

There. Another "threat of a lawsuit". But remember this ~ I do not merely 'threaten' legal action. I follow through. Ask your friends.

You have no ability to control yourself and abide by boundries.
Even when a court has ordered that you do so.

- - - - - - - -

I have abided by EVERY SINGLE "BOUNDARY" that the court has EVER imposed upon me. To state otherwise is further libel.

I will not engage you further.
- - - - - - - -

Blah Blah Blah........how many frigging hundreds of times have we heard THAT before?

***headdesk***

SFTS said...

flying fig wrote:
>>Owning matters. To say differently is silly.<<

No, it isn't. That is just wrong in so many ways... and a complete insult to some of the best trainers I have known.

So Dena - you feel that unless you OWN your own place, your horsemanships skills are garbage?

That is BS - plain and simple - and speaks to a certain amount of snobbery. Just wow....

Using property ownership as a way to gauge someone's level of equine expertise is ridiculous - we see that demonstrated constantly.

- - - - - - - -

Once again, VERY WELL SAID!!

Definitely bears repeating. :)

Dena said...

FF one other thing. Owning your own place implies a reasonable amount of success in that your business thrives enough for you to OWN your own place.

It also implies some financial responsibility on behalf of the owner.

It also implies a reasonable credit history.

Hence, providing a deeper sense of security to new to you customers that you will not disappear into the night.

You made mention of my possible snobbery.
What of your's?
Don't you think it is diminishing the successful efforts of others who do OWN their business and the property it sets upon, by saying it doesn't matter?

It matters. And most people who rent, no snobbery here, do so because they cannot yet afford to purchase or build.

Financial skill and stability count when asking the public to trust you with their property.
Sorry but nothing you say will change that.

I am not anyones competition here.
I have never in my life solicited to gain a client.
I do not intend to start.

I train and sell performance horses. My own.
I am my own primary client.
I only take in select outside horses for a myriad of reasons.

I also use some other professional trainers. And refer others to them as well.
And guess what?
They all OWN their facilities.

There may well be exceptions to the rule. But for me it is the rule.

You do realize I am expressing MY opinion?

nccatnip said...

SFTS said...
Simple deductive reasoning, catnip.

Dena has stated that she knows something as "fact" and has presented this tidbit as such here. Either she was told this information by an unrelated third party who has no clue what she is speaking of, or she fraudulently obtained my transcripts by impersonating me in order to gain access to them.
---------------------------------

Apples to oranges, STFS.
Keep on track.
I was addressing your inaccurate information, not the origin of the data and how it was obtained.
I suggest if the data is inaccurate, either ignore (fat chance) or rebutt with proof rather than enter into yet another baseless legal threat.

Ramble on.

littledog said...

"Owning your own place implies a reasonable amount of success in that your business thrives enough for you to OWN your own place.

It also implies some financial responsibility on behalf of the owner.

It also implies a reasonable credit history."
and
"And most people who rent, no snobbery here, do so because they cannot yet afford to purchase or build."

Not necessarily. Really--not at all. Sorry, but owning doesn't mean shit. Especially these days.

Heard much in the news lately about how the housing market tanked? Banks giving zero downpayment, interest-only loans to people whose income doesn't realistically qualify for that dream property? But the bank or mortgage company sucks people in because the finance company can go on to sell the debt to other investors (ie, your 401K fund) and rate the investment AAA because the average worker who is depending on their 401K to see them through retirement trusts what their fund manager tells them.

Even still today, in this economy, believe it or not, mortgage companies are approving loans for people whose history, income and credit score prove they are unlikely to be able to make the payments for any length of time.

The banks have nothing to lose by doing this--so many properties are bank-owned that getting a few months of payments (plus all the fees and closing costs every time a property turns over, due to some poor rube's dream of a home, that the bank falls all over themselves to get them to buy--and for the year or two they "own" it, the bank doesn't carry the cost of maintaining it) makes the bank more profit on these properties than if they let them sit while waiting for a responsible buyer.

Whether you want to believe it or not, I know what I'm talking about. For the past year, we've been shopping for a home. Been through several possibilities which we backed out of because the issues were just too weird. The bank considers us "qualified" for way, WAY more of a home price than we feel comfortable paying. Our credit score is at the top, we owe no debt, so of course they are pressuring to suck us in to some home we don't consider we can realistically afford.
In the meantime, until we find the right property, in the right area, for the right price, we are content staying in our current rental.
Not because we "can't afford" to buy--the bank keeps telling us we can. Not because we are "financially irresponsible"--we are more responsible than 99% of the potential buyers out there. Not because our credit score is questionable--it's also in the 99% bracket because we have made an effort to keep it that way by living within our means.

So, owners vs. renters? It means absolutely nothing. In fact, if I were looking for a trainer, one who is leasing stalls from a BO would actually strike me as more financiably responsible than a recent owner.
Unless I knew that the owner has owned the property for many years and there were no liens against it --which I can look up as easily as doing a background check on the owner, or searching for complaints from past customers, whether they own or rent would make no difference to me.

SFTS said...

LMAO catnip...why should I have to prove that which I know to be true? Sorry, but the 'burden of proof' is the responsibility of the accuser.

Littledog ~ OUTSTANDING!!

We could have bought our own place many times back as the market was going wild (2004-2006). We elected not to, because of the "creative financing" being offered, and we knew there was no way we could ever afford the homes we were being shown in the long run.

Interest only loans? No thanks. All those other crazy programs? No way. I can't count how many people I know here in Cali who lost their homes to foreclosure in this mess. Thank goodness we did not sink all our assets into a property we were doomed to lose. :( Even my brother, who had bought his home way back in 1988 (but mortgaged it to the hilt when the market was good and it still had value) lost his house.

We are waiting and biding our time for the right deal, one we know we can afford. That time is getting really soon. :) :)

flying fig said...

>>I guess you missed it huh? Maybe too busy looking for a point to pick?<<

No, Dena. No need to get so antagonistic. I understand that you often feel that anyone who does not agree with you has no reasonable concerns or is just wanting to nit-pick - but that is not the case. I am just sharing MY experiences and opinions based on many years of working in the industry in a variety of disciplines...

You seem to contradict yourself - saying that owning does matter - and then that it doesn't mean a trainer is not skilled. Which seems to indicate that it is actually the quality of the trainer themselves and not the ownership of their surroundings that is key.

>>You made mention of my possible snobbery.
What of your's?
Don't you think it is diminishing the successful efforts of others who do OWN their business and the property it sets upon, by saying it doesn't matter?<<


HUH? I just spewed vanilla latte all over the keyboard. Where did I say anything of the sort?? All I said was that not having their own place does not mean that a trainer is not skilled or respected. You even said that.... remember??

>>"Not owning does not mean that you do not have gifts or skill as a trainer."<<

Having a few acres - or even an entire quarter section - does not make one a better trainer than the equally qualified trainer down the road who may be leasing barn/arena space. It is not about the property but the expertise... even if a deed is not attached to it.

As well, owning property does not make a lousy horseman great - or turn them into a "trainer". Kind of like the "dressage trainer" down the road. Nice place. If you like heavy-handed riding, rollkur, lots of shouting, horses on the thin side and a constant procession of vets in and out attending to lamenesses. Another mark of a place to steer clear of - does the barn help seem to change on a regular basis? There is likely a reason that no one stays for long...

But the pretty white fencing charms the DQs who take lessons there, I guess.

I would prefer the place a few miles away...one half leased by a WP trainer and the other half leased by a dressage trainer. They are both excellent - and the contrast in disciplines makes that barn a lot of fun... and a learning experience for all. And none of the clients (or horses) there care that the place is leased. ;-)

>>So, owners vs. renters? It means absolutely nothing. In fact, if I were looking for a trainer, one who is leasing stalls from a BO would actually strike me as more financiably responsible than a recent owner.
Unless I knew that the owner has owned the property for many years and there were no liens against it --which I can look up as easily as doing a background check on the owner, or searching for complaints from past customers, whether they own or rent would make no difference to me.<<



Well said, little dog.

Dena said...

I didn't respond because I have become bored with the subject material.

Imagine that. I am a snob in that it takes intelligent discourse to keep my attention engaged.
Just plain being irritated might keep me engaged for awhile.

But as I am working on getting over that.
I elected to ignore the nit picking.

YAY for me!!!

Cut-N-Jump said...

So did anyone think that when I asked for sfts to answer the question, I may have possibly given half a shit what her long winded incredibly ignorant answer would be?

CharlesCityCat said...

Just because I am soooo very mature:

#199

CharlesCityCat said...

AAAAAANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDD:

#200


I like even numbers.

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