Tuesday, August 11, 2009

What has happened to the horse industry?

I am dealing with a nightmare right now, that I think can benefit your blog readers on the training blog by opening their eyes to what can happen in this type of situation. I will say it might get very ugly.

I quit my job officially June 16th, but in doing so gave over three weeks notice. I was working for the ranch trainer as his assistant, as well as the acting assistant manager of the boarding side of the business, and was doing very well in both those roles. The BO/boss was the woman that I got my horse from. I started a free lease on her early last year, and in October, she gave me the horse outright, with a signed bill of sale/transfer of ownership from her name to mine.

Almost immediately after I gave my notice that I would be leaving the job, things got shakey between us, due to several misunderstandings about what I was still responsible for around the barn. She would assume I knew I was responsible for task A, but would never actually tell me, and I would do tasks B and C instead, leaving task A undone. She'd get mad, we'd get it straightened out, then a few days later it would repeat. The other thing that was happening was that I would go to do Tasks A, B, C and find they were already done. She hired a girl to clean the stalls, which I was supposed to do still till today, behind my back, and didn't tell me she was doing it. So after my Monday off, Tuesday am I showed up to clean the stalls (I was no longer on a set time schedule at that point) and found someone else she was paying...already doing it. This happened with several other tasks as well, until finally I was just feeding the horses at night and nothing else.

During this time there were discussions between us about moving my horse out. I told her two weeks ago *mid-July* that I had found a place to move her, and would be moving her out. I had been receiving board in exchange for part of my pay. $350 a month, for the last 14 months. As I am not on a contract basis with her for board, save the verbal arrangements that had been broken time and time again, I was under no obligation to give her a full 30 day notice. I was unable to move her until the 31st into the new place, so in the meantime I paid in full (cash) for Augusts board, and since board there was just the stall, (self service), I bought hay, pellets, and sawdust bags amongst other things. I emailed her with the day I was moving her out, and that was that... I thought.
I was supposed to move her today.

Yesterday, she sent me an email saying that I was no longer her owner, and that I no longer had permission to move the horse off of the property. In doing so I would be trespassing. Apparently she has the ability to reneg on a legal bill of sale all by herself. Her reasons were that I had not 'shown up for work' the last week and a half, and was not 'financially responsible' for the care of the horse. (she had already, without informing me I was no longer needed, hired someone else to take care of the horses, and when I showed up to do the stuff that had already been done, I left without seeing anyone around. This is what she means by 'not showing up', because if she didn't see me, I wasn't there.)
Her reasons as listed included a vet bill I am paying off (it was several hundred dollars from last year that I have a payment plan on, agreed on by me and the vet himself) thats really none of her business; supposedly I was paying the farrier $20 at a time to shoe her ... which was entirely not true ... he charges much more than that and had I not been paying the full amount each time he WOULDN'T COME BACK (DUH!), again not her business; and threw back in my face what the judge in the custody case regarding my kids said to me about how I should seriously 'reconsider horse ownership at this time' not because of my finances, but her own bias that 'horses are big scary dangerous unpredictable animals not suitable for kids to be around'. AGAIN, none of her business.

I called Police Dept. for advice, in nutshell they say don't go on property without her permission, and that its a civil matter, have to go to court to get horse back. Great. I'm told this by several others as well. That I need to set up an appointment to get my saddle, grooming supplies, halter, etc. so nobody misunderstands why I'm there.

So, after the shock of being told all that, I find out from a friend whom I thought I could trust, and boards her horse there also, that boss had sent an email blast to all the other boarders sans me, saying if anyone sees me show up to take the horse to call her immediately. So, now everyone else is involved as well. Friend and I have a long conversation about it, and she promises me she will keep it confidential.

This morning, I check my email about noon for the first time, and theres another email from boss saying that she knows she's been getting my messages because she and my friend were talking and that I can contact her if I want to work something out in writing about me leaving her there, and being able to ride her there. My friend, when asked if she mentioned anything we discussed to boss, denied everything and claimed not to know whats going on. I can't tell if she's lying or not, but I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust anyone related to that ranch right now because anything I say might get back to boss and be used against me. So, I loose a great friend over this as well.

Now, this mare was used for most of her hard life as a surrogate broodmare or 'reset' mare, and how boss lady acquired her was exactly that way. She embryo transfered from another mare she owned years ago into (my horse) and shipped her from Florida to here. Once the foal was born, she was supposed to be shipped back, but boss kept her instead, and supposedly bought her from the vet facility. They claimed last august, when I tried to get her records, that the mare had not been paid for, and needed to either be paid for or sent back. I never followed up on that for fear that I wasn't supposed to know that information and never mentioned it to boss. To this day, I still don't know if boss ever paid her off. Then a few months ago, she asked me if she could use (my horse) again for that very purpose next year to breed her mare that colicked two weeks after her last foal was born, and almost died from it. She is so desperate to get another baby out of this other mare, that I really believe she is trying to keep (my horse) on the property for that reason. But I have no proof of that.
So I'm stuck canceling my transport with less than 24 hours notice (out the deposit there), have to go to the barn I was moving her to and tell them whats going on and ask for a refund, so they can open the stall back up, and I'm sitting on all the supplies I just bought and now can't use.
I have no other choice but to either sue for the horse itself back, or for the 14 months of board pay I worked off back because she never intended for the horse to leave the property. At the $350 per month cost, thats almost $5000. The horse is worth maybe $500 on open market, probably much less because she's slightly lame in 2 legs, has a club foot, and is not registered. And I have a signed and legal bill of sale! (for the record, I knew from the beginning that she would never be a lifetime riding horse. she would in the next 5 years or so, need to be retired from riding and put out to pasture, or given a non riding job. I was ok with this, and was starting to plan for it.)
I guess my intent on sending this is so maybe you can post this as a 'beware' type story, even though nobody would have seen this coming. By the way, this woman and her husband own two very profitable car dealerships and are quite active in the charities locally. My boyfriend suggested that I take this to the news media, with the slant that this woman is so generous as to spend thousands of their personal money to help those less fortunate but months after gifting a horse to someone close to her, with a legal bill of sale included, refuses to let the horse off the property when the new owner chooses to move her because of selfish personal reasons? HMMM. Think that might get some attention?
Anyways, I am just disgusted at the way this has all turned out. And I know others that read your blog may have had similar experiences, and I'd really like to know what happened, how it was resolved. I think if I go to court and sue for the full $5000, she won't pay that if it was her choice, she'd rather let the horse go, but in truth I am starting to wonder if I wouldn't be better off with the money, and go to the next Horsebreakers auction and pick up a gelding there..... but in truth my heart lies with her, problems and all, and It would be very difficult to let her go.
Thanks JR for reading this.


I have always taken a lot of pride in being an honest trainer and taking the utmost care of my clients. If I tell you I am going to do something, I do it and there is no questions asked.

I find this kind of crap in the horse industry alarming.

There seems to be a level of dishonesty that is in this industry that goes above anything else, primarily because there is no regulation.

But what do you do when you are in a situation like this?

It is important that you do get a written contract when buying a horse from any trainer of owner. No matter what!!!!!!!

I advise people, never enter into a free lease. They rarely work out.

When you go to the horse show and there are trainers there offering to sell you a horse that has won everything at the show, and the trainer tells you that the horse has won multiple Championships. Do not take his/her word for it, check the horses show record for yourself.

If the trainer/owner offers a vet check, get it, but use your own veterinarian, not the sellers!

If the seller tells you that you have to use his vet, then walk away.

Never, and I repeat never make an arrangement in which you are going work off the payments of the horse. If you work for the owner, let them pay you and then you write a check as a payment for the horse.

One of my neighbors was involved in a deal in which they were buying a horse from someone and working off the payments. The seller decided that she was not happy with the arrangement and went to the buyers house in the middle of the night and took the horse back. The buyer reported the horse stolen the next morning and now the seller is facing felony charges.

Do you see where I am going with this?

You absolutely have to protect yourself when buying a horse. There is absolutely no reason to take any risks.

The horse business is way too small. I hear about this crap all of the time and I start to question the integrity of horse people more and more. I know there are really honest horsemen/women out there that care about their reputations, but the bad ones seem to be popping their heads up more and more lately.

And that pisses me off!

Rant over!


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SFTS said...

Bravo!!!, flying fig and littledog! Once again, extremely well said. :)

flying fig said...

Dena... any opinions other than your own - or the concerns and experiences of others... are NOT simply "nitpicking" as you smugly insist.

The intelligent discourse you say you like does not involve lofty dismissal of other opinions, name-calling, sneering at what others say etc. And as some seem to favour those tactics, I agree... having a decent discussion can be difficult.

A truly intelligent discussion involves a wide variety of opinions and thoughts... not just those of a select few.

And just to stay on the mature side of things...

202!! Heh. :-)

Dena said...

FF however you choose to perceive it is fine by me. They are after all your perceptions.

I am a snob FF. Even I know that. When people pose, posture, and pretend, the snob and the bitch in me take turns.

Here is the thing. And it is sure to send you off again.

You have offered some very good things from time to time.
And I have always taken a moment to offer praise and thanks for those contributions.

When I ignore you it is because you are presenting based on how you wish the world is. Not how it truly is.

It really is as simple as you might be a trainer if other people and other trainers call you a trainer.

I was a groom when I was a kid.
I was being paid as a professional rider and trainer from the age of 15 on.
I have never hired out as a groom since.

I have never once ran an ad or in any other way solicited clients.
So FF where do my clients come from?
10 out of 10 come to me on referral from other professionals.

I think that everyone has something to offer. I think that everyone has something they are more interested in or skilled at.

What bothers me is that you never want to allow me what you always ask, demand, and yes, whine for.

You never allow that my words are my opinion.
You never allow for the many years of experience behind them.
That is what gives them their weight.
My words and opinions.

I actually know of what I speak. And if I don't I say so.
You on the other hand are always trying to tell me why I am wrong.

And again, I will tell you. The rules are the rules.
While there may be exceptions to.
They do not happen often enough to change the rules.

You know what else? I do not have to qualify my opinions.
You know why?
Because the true professionals get what I am saying.
And that I know what I am talking about.
Because for them the words draw a pretty clear map.

So maybe you have not been around long enough to be completely fluent in that language.

An example would be I do not worry about a barn owner running off farriers, employees, or making poor choices for the animals.
That all falls firmly within my control.

Because I am the barn owner.
Would you like to tell me again how owning does not matter?

flying fig said...

Dena - I do not whine as you maintain. Nor do I instigate fights here, curse people out, sneer and carry on as others do. To do that - I would have to post at least 10 times more than I do now. At least as much as SFTS does. And I come nowhere close to that.

I respect your right to your opinions and have even agreed many times but you chose to ignore that in your rush to condemn. The intelligent discussions you say you are looking for are not comprised of just one point of view.

You, OTOH, have of late often decided to not give my opinions, experience or concerns any consideration whatsoever.
You sneer.
You express your contempt.
You "offer me praise" on the rare occasions when you deem that my "contributions" or "presentations" are acceptable to you.
Can you not see how condescending that is?

You do not consider that other opinions and thoughts might be every bit as valid as yours.
Sometimes people just agree to disagree - but it is often your way or the highway - no other points are acceptable. No views but your own.

I am a "true professional", thank you very much. No matter what you have decided. And I have worked for and with many other "true professionals" in a variety of disciplines over the years. And yet you have summarily decreed that I do not "understand" or am not "fluent in the language".

That would be wrong. Very wrong.

Horses are my life - 24/7/4/12... and have been so full time for over 20 years ... and yet you find that sneerworthy at times and seem to like to get on my case simply for having a different take on things.

On thing being around horses should tell all of us - there is no One Way to do anything. You find the best approach to solve the problem at hand that is specific to that individual horse - and yet that particular solution may not work on the next horse...

You suggest that I am ignorant. Stupid. That I do not know anything about the horse industry or training or professionals etc. etc.

That does not "send me off". Unless by "send me off" you mean not agreeing.

It does, however, make me sad.

I like intelligent well-rounded discussions where all points of view are considered and many different concerns are aired. All opinions matter in a discussion - I have said that many times and I stand by that. I am not sure why you have now decided that I am to be sneered at and scoffed at... but whatever.

As a "true professional", I'll just take such things in stride and carry on... with a heavy sigh...

littledog said...

I'm so sorry, I profusely apologise for being so boring. And for wasting everybody's time, because I am so incapable of engaging in "intelligent discourse."

But, just in case a few of you other stupid people, like me, are intererested in educating yourselves about owning vs. renting, and how the banks and
finance companies go about providing loans (from an insider's prospective) and why owning vs. renting doesn't mean shit to the banks, credit companies, or anybody else besides the individual who makes their own choice, here's a good starting-point article:
click here because you're stupid and boring

Never mind, don't even bother (coughbecause we're shopping for a home and have educated ourselves about the industry and would rather compete against uneducated peoplecough), so, please continue to consider me stupid, boring, and incapable of intelligent discourse.
Ya, me dum, nev4mind.

SFTS said...

Littledog, you are anything but dumb or boring. :) Dena is the one incapable of intelligent discourse. Not you.

FF, why do you even bother? That might just be a *headdesk* moment...

GoLightly said...

Lonely, are we?

joanna said...

My husband and I are pretty well versed in realty. We have been investing for the last 3 years. Yeah, I know. Just when the bubble burst. However, we own a couple of rental houses, and from our experience, most renters want to stay renters, not own. One of our tenents did express interest in buying the house they live in, especially because of the first time buyer incentives, but never followed through. We should have known. They even rent thier computer. It may be different within the horse industry, but not in the general public.

I have been watching the drama unfolding here. While SFTS has been getting pretty bad, in a way I understand why. She has been attacked so frequently, even innocent posts complementing other posters, she may have felt she needed to go on the offense instead of defense. There comes a point when one starts to feel all comments, even innocent comments, feel like an attack. All I can say is, SFTS, leave it. No matter how much you bang your head against the wall, it won't give. I have been in your shoes. Walk away.

Dena- you say you like an intelligent discussion, but I don't see that. I see just as much arrogance in you as I see in SFTS. Perhaps that's why you don't get along? I say this because of what you have written. JR did not create this blog or any other blog just for you. This is NOT your personal room. Share. You claim you are a better trainer than SFTS, because you own your farm and she does not. If I were looking for someone to train my horse, I would choose SFTS before I would choose you. I don't care if you own your own place. Your history of drug abuse and mental illness would keep me from ever sending one of my horses into your care. I grew up the child of an addict. I see a lot of him in you from your posts. The addictions may be broken, but the addict attitude is still there. Before you start to argue and get your buddies going, know this. I will not answer. I learned to walk away from people like you a long time ago.

SFTS said...

Joanna...thanks. :)

What you have said is exactly correct. Just like I mentioned above to FF, why do we even bother?

For myself, I only respond because of the inaccuracies and outright lies, I seek to set the record straight.

There are a few angry, unhappy people on this blog who like trying to make me out to be evil incarnate. Unfortunately, when I respond I sometimes end up looking almost as bad as they do.

Ah, well. It's a dreary, rainy day here. Waiting for things to clear so I can go get some more horses ridden!

Dena said...

joanna normally I might ask if you have some copy and paste to substantiate your presentations.

It isn't even remotely possible to compare me to well anyone.

Whatever your opinion of me may be it would affect my professional life not at all.
Because you would have to be referred to get to me.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinions.
Whatever they may be.
Everyone is.
Just as I am entitled to be bored by them.

Because boredom is another way of saying I am not iinterested in fighting.
And some of you seem to be real slow in picking up on that.

So please feel free joanna to express your opinion and qualify it by saying that it doesn't matter what I say.

And you know what FF I do on occasion sneer and have contempt.
I listed some of the reasons that inspire me.

Here are a few more. Acting helpless or in need of defense.
Taking a sideways shot and then running backwards saying that is not what I meant.

The very best way some of you could show your defense of SFTS is by going to her blog and posting.
Did that escape you?

Gee I am a snob, who occasionally sneers and has contempt.
Who knew?
And all this time I just thought I was a bitch who had enough balls to stand by my opinions.

You know the only thing no one has been able to call me here and successfully defend is a liar.
And I am REALLY okay with that.

Here is a thought, I do not care.
Do the few of you who do it think your not so subtle shots have gotten by me?
I remind you of your own issues joanna?
That is yours not mine.
little dog you have your own brand of backbiting.
FF I don't get you. I have said it many times.
That is not a shot I just don't get much of what you present.

I get what some of you present in that how dare I hold my head high and not allow shame to rule my life.
Especially when you take pains to remind me of what you believe to be my place.
Tough shit and too bad...

I mean really who does she think she is!?!
Can you believe she had the nerve to say that to me!?!
She attacked me!!!
Well I am going to go and post some links.
Yeah and I will back you up in that.
We'll show her!!!
(Not including you in that FF)

The only thing some of you ladies have shown me is yourselves.
And few things in life have the power to bore me more than people who have 30+years experience of themselves and are still trying to front.

Nuff said...

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
You know the only thing no one has been able to call me here and successfully defend is a liar.
- - - - - - - -

Au contraire. You have lied repeatedly. You delight in spreading lies.

'Nuff said.

CharlesCityCat said...

*** Here is me ignoring the above several posts***

I will just have to say on the owning your own property issue:

This doesn't matter what type of property you have, but it does have two positives that renting never will have,

1) The interest you pay on your mortgage is still a deduction on your tax return. Given how many deductions that have been taken away over the years, this one remains a good one. Last year ours was over $21,000. Major.

2) If you are smart about what you buy and how you handle yourself, equity in a property is still a good investment. There is no quick turn around on this investment most of the time, and right now the market sucks, but it will recover. My husband and I bought our first home together in 1999, we sold it in 2007 (market was already tanking) and we still came out after everything was all said and done with $160,000 in pure profit. That includes the updates/upgrades we made over the years.

You just have to be smart and not listen to the hype that is presented. Go with the longstanding types of mortgages, fixed rate 30 year at the best interest rate you can get. If you don't qualify, don't buy it.

Just my opinion as I have quite a bit of personal experience in the buying and selling aspect of home ownership.

GoLightly said...

Does anyone hear a french horn playing "Taps" mournfully in the background?
How about "Amazing Grace" to the sound of bagpipes?
That's what I hear.

The sound of horse people, who just can't/won't/will never allow others to be differing in their opinions.

It's the sound of horses, wishing we'd just take care of them properly, and ride them well, and appreciate the fact that we own them (royal we, of course).

This >>>
and this <<<

Yes, both of you, all of us, anyone who has ever snarked and sneered, and you betcha I have, should know this.
None of it matters, as long as you do what you can with what you have.
Be proud of that, as I am to have read & learned from all of you here.

And both of you, because it is indeed about the horses, understand it.

This strange mind of mine takes on the character of what I read.
I feel terribly guilty for what everyone has said, and will say, and has said. I feel as if I've said it. It rips my old silly heart to shreds.

Because it's all MooT at the end of the day.
Except to the horses, who would appreciate that "we" calmly, and positively assert ourselves in their lives. Every day.

As long as that's happening, I honestly still, could "care" less what happens. I hope everyone can stay happy in their lives. Horses reflect us.

I will never agree with products designed to enhance our pleasure, but not their comfort & ability to do their job.

I am very worried about horses and their feet. Tad Plaid kinda did that to me.

I think horses should be allowed to be horses. Just let him be a horse, Mac Cone said.
Just let him be the horse he is.

I hope SFTS wins, I hope Dena sells some horses to good homes, I hope for all of you and your horses.

I hope CNJ gets that castle.

It's a tough life, for those without quite enough $$, or a string of bad luck. Broke my heart. My wallet. Yup, my mind.

I almost commented, Dena, because I laughed at your drones/slaves/grooms comment. Most of those, no, not all, most should be working their arses off as I type this in the comfort of my own rented hovel. They'll be too tired and broke to net into the night, unless they, well, we won't go there.

I'm more animal than people, when I type this. Because that's how I think. Always, Right Now.

Try it.

What I liked about the Shame Blog, even though I have never liked her cursing, as I didn't like Fugs curses, was that it spoke to stuff I really think IS wrong.
I can't get on board with "that child is one foot from that horse!" crap. And a lot of other crap, but whatever.
The rabid commenters, and the lurkers, the worst of them, well, yeah.

Shame's blog was about horse comfort and suitability to it's job. I think.
I forget;)

Was that a tornado??

anyway, maybe I'll max out this time on characters. I haven't rambled in ages, so scroll awayyyy.

I think angles in horse's joints are going extinct, too.
That worries me.

Ditziest, bitziest, out.

GoLightly said...

214th, without even looking;)

GoLightly said...

Hey, CCC!

I missed ya!
Howz tha Pacas?

GoLightly said...

CRAP, thunderboomers.

gotta go.

CharlesCityCat said...


Pacas are fine and my ponies are fine. Everyone is well fed, happy and content. No one here has to worry about being abused for a blue ribbon. Actually, no one ever has been, under my care.

I agree with you and will try harder in the future. It isn't easy though. I, for many reasons, have extreme issues with self-righteous, condescending know-it alls.

Big Hugs to you!

flying fig said...

>>I get what some of you present in that how dare I hold my head high and not allow shame to rule my life.<<

Where have I ever said anything like that?
I haven't presented anything of the kind.
Not once.
Nor have I even thought it or implied it.
Those are your words - they have never been mine.

I have never even brought up your past in any of these discussions. Not once. But you choose to ignore all that...

>>Especially when you take pains to remind me of what you believe to be my place.
Tough shit and too bad... <<

Again - where have I done that? Show me. I have said nothing of the sort - and yet you get all "tough shit" on me? What would I believe your place to be?

You are assigning me motives and words that I have never had/said.

You are the one telling me how little my concerns matter, how dumb I am etc. :-) I am not the one bearing down on people like a thunderstorm... and when I see you engaging in some of the bullying tactics you have rightfully been angry about others doing...

*shakes head*

Dena - if you want to continue to sneer at me - suit yourself. If it is simply because I may not always agree with you... well, it is unrealistic to think that everyone will always be in agreement about everything... just as it is unrealistic to expect every horse to follow the book and react in the same way to everything. Basic horse sense... that also applies to people. In fact - if people applied horse sense to the way they dealt with people... there would be less yelling and metaphorical harsh bits, yanking on mouths and raking with spurs... and far less chasing around the round pen in endless circles...

>>Acting helpless or in need of defense.
Taking a sideways shot and then running backwards saying that is not what I meant. <<


I am not sure I understand what you are referring to here - but as it may be mistaken motives that you have assigned to me, perhaps it is best to remain confused...

Contrary to your assertions, I am not "fronting" anything. I am who I am. Open and honest. Which is why I can not always just nod and smile and excuse all your dismissive comments...

Expecting the object of your contempt to simply accept it is not the basis for any kind of intelligent discussion.

I am not talking abut SFTS in any of this BTW - you two can carry on raging at each other for all eternity if you wish. And most of us will just keep on scrolling - because it has gotten beyond tiresome. But it is wrong to spread your animosity towards her over the rest of us..

GL... I hear a B-flat cornet playing Taps - not a French Horn.

Not just Taps - but the the Last Post that leads into it as well. I played that once at the Remembrance Day assembly at our high school. It is a long, difficult and emotional solo. I may not have played it with all the technical expertise it required - but I played it from the heart.

Everything I do or say - comes from the heart.

You know - I am one of those drones/slaves/grooms/farm managers... because farm manager is simply a shorter way to say that you do everything and anything. Which is why I often do not post here for long stretches of time as shows come and go and business carries on...

Just as well. Anything I say will just be found lacking in some way... ;-) ... but I am always hopeful for those elusive Intelligent Discussions. They do exist. And a NIght Owl like myself can enjoy them into the wee hours before it is chore time again and the day starts gearing up...

But today - is a rare day off.
And the focus is canine - not equine!
Flyball, anyone?

SFTS said...

GoLightly wrote:
I hope SFTS wins
- - - - - - - -

While I'm not really certain what you are referring to, I shall take that at face value and graciously say, "Thank you".

flying fig wrote:
Anything I say will just be found lacking in some way... ;-) ... but I am always hopeful for those elusive Intelligent Discussions.
- - - - - - - -

I seem to have the same problem, with a few folks no matter what I say, it is taken out of context, bashed, trashed and otherwise flamed. But I, too, hope there is actually some Intelligent Discussion left here. Some can definitely converse intelligently and without the condescending sneer. But maybe this blog, with the Rotten apples who have found a home here, isn't the place for such discussions. :)

Jealous of those who have canine companionship! Alas, I've got to make do with an aloof Maine Coon who thinks I exist to serve him, whilst he insists on sprawling across my bed...Sigh.

joanna said...

Flying Fig- What I have learned over the years is that addicts are innately selfish people. They put their own pain above their children and family. They are the only ones that matter. Once they dry out, if truly reformed, they honestly try to be humble, giving and honest. As we all should be. They put away all arrogance, snarkiness, anger. The comments made, including only taking horses on referral, shows it. I have known many top professionals who give back by giving clinics to those who otherwise could never afford a lesson with them. They most certainly don't take clients only on referral. Oh, and some have a reputation of being "difficult". They remember where they started and are more than happy to help. For example, I was showing my OTTB mare, who, as much as I love her, did not have the potential to be a top show horse. I was trying to figure out a little problem with her in the warm up when a top rider stepped in and gave me a mini lesson. I learned a lot that day, and it wasn't just about riding. Always be gracious, no matter who you are.

Dena said...

(Not including you in that FF)

Please FF try to only take personally what is personally directed at you.
Which would be this.

>>And you know what FF I do on occasion sneer and have contempt.<<

and this

>>FF I don't get you. I have said it many times.
That is not a shot I just don't get much of what you present.<<

Nowhere did I say I am sneering at or contemptuous of you.
The second part is simply what it is.

I accused you of nothing FF. And yet you managed to take almost the entirety of post personally.

And joanna I do not get my buddies going on anything or after anyone.
While I have on occasion asked them to stop or let it go.
Just as, they have to me.
I have never asked them to go after anyone.

That would be a perfect example of cheapshotting me on shit that isn't even mine.
And you might want to give some thought to the fact that over 80% of the population suffers from some type of untreated mental illness.
At least, I addressed mine as best as I am able.

Stacy I do not lie. I did not lie about you not having a HS Diploma or even a GED certificate.

Which it would be impossible to get into any college without one or the other.

Just because you say it is a lie does not make it so.
The fact that you say it is says much about the distance between you, your world, and reality.

When you present a credential to establish yourself there is an expectation that you can prove it.
We both know that you cannot.

In the grand sceme of things who gives a shit?
Why you tell such blatant whoppers that are so easily disproven is beyond me.

But there is a difference between being an univolved party who comes under attack.
And a party who attacks others to establish their own self and self-perceived superiority.

GL me too. I am again overwhelmed by the unrelated nastiness and insanity of some aspects of the industry.

SFTS said...

joanna wrote:
Always be gracious, no matter who you are.
- - - - - - - -

Now there is a great lesson. :)

Some of the best of the best BNT's will, and do, offer free advice and assistance when asked. I count many among my friends, and routinely go to them for advice and assistance when I have something come up that I am not entirely sure of handling. I am not Super Woman, I know my limitations and I'm eternally grateful to have access to some of the best riders and trainers in the world when I need help!!

I also try to spend a great deal of my time giving back to others, too. Pay it forward. A good policy to have.

Dena said...

joanna you want to speak of what you know of addicts speak on that.

But you know nothing of me.

And giving back?
Are you seriously shitting me with a statement like that?
You know then?
Exactly who you just said that to?

Good God woman deal with your issues without making them mine.
Because I did not do it to you.

I have asked for nothing from you.
Not even your understanding.
I have taken nothing from you. I have not even managed to make a dent in you pre-existing bias and prejudice.

Carry your own baggage or find a deep hole to dump it in.
But do not even try to add it to mine.
Because I also learned something a long time ago.
Not to waste my life carrying around other peoples shit.

SFTS said...

Oh goodness, Dena. Please. Stop now before you dig yourself an even bigger hole to crawl out of.

Yes, you lie. A lot.

I asked you before, when you presented this nonsense about a high school diploma as "fact" where you got this information, as the only way to prove anything one way or another accurately would be to get your hands on an illicit copy of my school transcripts. You didn't even dance around that direct question, you evaded it entirely.

Also, that little tidbit about "threatening to run over a minor" with my truck? Pure, unadulterated BULLSHIT and another lie.

There is so much more, but it would take a month of posting comments to cover it all...

GoLightly said...

oh, fcs.
Never mind.
A ribbon. It seems to be important to you. Go for it.

FF, buy a sense of humour.
Or put up your dukes, Lass!
Don't be so concerned about nothing. Enjoy what you're doing, and try not to feel resentment to those that own what you love.

I do NOT mean Dena.

I know that feeling. It can rot your socks, that feeling.
Gets in the way of working with animals. Everything, really.
Learn to scroll. Works for me. Pressing ignore, too.

Gleaning/sharing information is the key. That's the trouble with the net.

To Gleaning that which is useful.
Ignoring that which you can't change.
Refusing to do that which is pretty obviously wrong, for the horse.

Many Horse people seem to suck at this.

To All Us Non-Horse People.
Not owning, because we do take full responsibility for our animals. Since I cannot afford one, I will not own one.

Anybody else think JR's initial question has been answered?

I sure do.
People, Money, Education, Class.
Not necessarily in that order.

Really, really, ReallY, no need to reply.

SFTS said...

>>> "Be proud of that, as I am to have read & learned from all of you here.

I feel terribly guilty for what everyone has said, and will say, and has said. I feel as if I've said it. It rips my old silly heart to shreds
." <<<

>>> "A ribbon. It seems to be important to you. Go for it." <<<

Bi-polar much, GL?

Dena said...

GL I am laughing. In a good way. I too highly doubt I own what FF loves.
Nor should I.
It is what makes her, her, and me, me. And you, you.

SFTS it is so simple for me. The last school that I dropped out of was Osseo Sr. High.
As I have never bothered to pick up my GED cetificate I don't count that either.
And as, I have not been to college yet bragging about an imaginary degree or two seems more effort than it might be worth.

Has it occured to you that I received that information from a very reliable source?
Your own family.
The same folks that say they don't know what is wrong with you.
That you have always been jealous of everyone and anyone who has what you want.

Harsh...I know. But you were determined to know.
So, there you have it.

And I don't lie. That is part of what irritates some folks about me.
I tend to say things exactly the way I see them to be.
As, I apply this trait to myself as well I fail to understand what all the bruhaha is about.

Dena said...

And before you take a deep breath to start making all sorts of threats.

I have never once made any attempt to initiate any type of contact with anyone related to or associated with you.
Never not once...

Dena said...

To clarify one final time with regard to my position on owning vs. renting.

I never meant to imply that owning makes a better person.
It does not always make for a better trainer.

I believe I said something to the effect that owning granted clients some additional measure of security.
Particularly with regard to recourse.
As in, if anything went bad they had assets you could pursue them for.

joanna said...

Up until a few weeks ago, I had no bias against you. In fact, I liked you. I thought you were being unfairly attacked. As for "baggage", I dealt with it a long time ago. My therapist told me I was incredibly well adjusted and did not need therapy. I saw him for a total of 5 times, mostly to deal with post-partum depression. Medication helped that. As my husband likes to say, better living through chemistry.

Dena said...

ebb and flow joanna. We all have our good days and our bad ones.

As no one ever promised me fair in this life I finally grew up enough to stop expecting it and quit pouting and punishing others because it wasn't on the horizon.

I may be harsh of occasion. I can be a real snide bitch too.
But only when I am fighting for something.
Never just to be or to take.

Ask anyone who knows me. Me prefers peace and quiet.
And solitude much.

Me is often tired of a world who speaks for all of the wrong reasons more than they ever speak just to be heard for themselves.

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
Has it occured to you that I received that information from a very reliable source?
Your own family.
The same folks that say they don't know what is wrong with you.
That you have always been jealous of everyone and anyone who has what you want.

- - - - - - - -


Oh, Dena. You admitted it. LOL!!

My family...yes, indeed. ;) That would be something coming from the jealous brother with whom I have never had a good relationship, whom one of your newest friends could not wait to contact about me. The very same friend of yours who called my mother to whine about me, and who has freely given out my mother's phone number so that others can harass her.

Brilliant! Still LOLing here!!

But I am so very sorry, you have your "facts" entirely wrong. ;) Go figure.

Not to mention failing to address the many other lies you have told as well. If wishes were horses...

JohnieRotten said...

While I know where the debate over owning versus renting started, I will finish it for you.


yes I own my own place and have all of the problems associated with owning. The reality of how you chose to live is yours and yours alone. And no, I do not agree with how you live or run your business. I was raised differently I guess. And yes I was not very nice to you on Shame. And for that I apologise. But perhaps you need to sit back and think about what you say.

And yes SFTS you are a bit of a pain in the ass. But I can live with that.


If SFTS is satisfied with her life then let her live it. Her priorities may be different but so be it. Who are we to argue.

As for the rest of you. I posted a new thread on here the other day and that should tell you all exactly how I feel about all of this bullshit.

It should not be a question of owning or renting. It should be a quetion of do I have a roof over my head and food for my family on the table. And am I able to take care of them before I take care of me. Are my bills paid etc.

SFTS said...

Joanna...several of us tried to like her. Some of us defended her when she was being attacked on FHOTD back in February (I think it was, would have to go back and re-read the comments ~ I have 102 comments from the "4sam" SN saved in my mail as well as 252 comments from her Dena SN on FHOTD saved...they tell a story, indeed).

We thought that perhaps she was being unfairly attacked. But, over the course of the past couple of months we have seen the light that those who were doing the attacking of her tried to shed on her. We have seen the reality of her. You've seen it right here, on this very blog.

Frankly, in so many ways I think it is sad. That she is so jealous of some of us, that she feels the need to lash out so venomously, to lie, to attempt to elevate herself out of the holes she continues to dig herself into. But she never seeks to change and she wants to deny what, and who, she truly is. Really, it is sad.

CharlesCityCat said...

***Deep Sigh***

Denial is such a truly sad aspect of human thought process.

flying fig said...

>>FF, buy a sense of humour.<<

Ummm... GL ... I have had a sense of hunour about a lot of this nonsense... and treated it with some joking etc. many times. Going against the current, as it were...

>>Or put up your dukes, Lass!<<

Ah - but when I put up my dukes, stand up for my opinions, address accusations, speak from my heart and do not back down in the face of contempt and scorn - what does it get me? More of the same... ;-)

>>Don't be so concerned about nothing. Enjoy what you're doing, and try not to feel resentment to those that own what you love.<<

Resentment to those that own what I love?
I guess I do not understand what you mean here.
The things I love the most - I do "own".
Family, friends, my terriers... my two fine specimens of Pasture Art...

And if I did not enjoy what I am doing - I would not still be doing it after all these years... drone that I am! ;-)

You can email me to explain if you wish - no need to clog the blog. Hee - I'm a poet! :-)

SFTS said...

JR, we are working our way toward ownership. As I said in an earlier comment, we could have bought back when my husband had his longtime job before being laid off, but could never have sustained our lives after that point. We were being shown properties that we could NOT afford once the interest rate adjusted, or when the balloon payment was due. I thank my lucky stars every single day that we did not purchase our "dream property" at that time. It would have been even more disastrous than the last two years have been for us.

We are happy in how we "choose to live" these days. We have a lovely home, though it is not *ours*, but we pay well for the privilege of living here. It makes us happy while we work to rebuild our lives. How I run my business? You do not know how I choose to run my business. My clients and students are happy, they get the results they desire, the horses are happy, they thrive under my care and training. That's enough for me, and no, you don't have to agree. It is a free country. We pay our bills. We provide for our family. We have a tremendous circle of friends in the local equine community which is far more widespread than I even realized. My husband gains new clients for his business almost daily, and that, like mine, is entirely from word of mouth by satisfied customers. That's worth a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, to me.

Apology accepted, but for it to be thought sincere, it really needs to be sincere. I am reserving judgment on that one for the time being.

joanna said...

I think, if I knew Dena in real life, I would probably like her very much. CyberDena, well ..... I think she can be a fabulous person to know. I can honestly say I don't hate or dislike anyone. Some people I'll be polite to, and keep it at that, knowing everyone has redeeming value (except my congressman).

JR- Sometimes I think it's not a matter of choice to own or not to own. Good farm land is expensive. Unless you have another source of income, you inherited it or money, it may not be possible. Even here in OH, what used to be affordable, isn't anymore. I live in the 7th fastest growing county in the country. All the surrounding counties have gone up in price.

Either way, a good trainer is a good trainer is a good trainer.

SFTS said...

CharlesCityCat said...
I worry that there is a "trainer" on the West Coast who professes to be an expert in a multitude of disciplines and yet shows no proof. I worry that this person says she is involved in an organization that mentors children. I worry about the integrity and honesty of this "trainer."

- - - - - - - -

JohnieRotten said...
I lay awake at night worrying if I pissed off a the west coast trainer that CCC was talking about and if she lost respect for me!

Ok maybe I don't lay awake all night!

Oh I don't worry about that at all.

- - - - - - - -

nccatnip said...
I worry the west coast trainer will find this blog and ruin it too.

I worry the west coast trainer will not stay there and make her way east.

- - - - - - - -

LMAO........how many ways can you spell "pathetic"??


Dena said...

Joanna Thank You. FF I think you took it not in the way GL meant.
Or, maybe you got it exactly right.
It is going to take me awhile to understand what you mean.
Please be patient with me.
JR I know that.

Me? Jealous? Well there are things that I do wish I had.
I wish I had a better house, barn, fencing, grazing pasture, truck, trailer, stability in my bank accounts, material things you know.

But the one thing I no longer ever wish for?
Better friends.
Because I have the very best...

No SFTS I have enough worries without envying anyone theirs.

CCC can you call me? I am cleaning house.
The house phone only takes incoming calls. And the cell phone is prepaid which is a pain in the butt at .10 a minute.

NewHorseMommy said...

Just for informational purposes, I doubt a high school diploma or GED is required for community college entry (although I would have to check).

I HATED high school, was a little bit of a delinquent, and took the CA proficiency exam when I was 16.

Then took some classes at the local CC, at the age of 16.

Got my GED at 18, worked a few Forest Service jobs, waitressing, etc., until poverty was no longer a novelty, and enrolled full time at the CC. Then I transferred to a 4-year, and then went on for a Master's.

To this day, I honestly don't think much of public education in CA. The 4-year schools don't care if you did not finish high school, as long as you put in the first two years at the CC. And it's significantly cheaper to go that route.

Anyways, just wanted to throw that out there!

CharlesCityCat said...

As far as I know, there is only one way to spell pathetic, and I just did.

And yes, I did say "final nail in the coffin," just as you have said several times that you wouldn't respond back. We are a couple of silly girls aren't we. LOL.

Okay, how about this, just as I said to Sarcastabitch from FHOTD via email, you don't like me and I don't like you, neither one of us respects each other, so lets call it a day.


joanna said...

Did you know the guy who essentialy built NASDAQ from the ground up only had a high school education? Really. My husband worked for him when he was at NASDAQ. One of the most intelligent men I ever met. And a big goof, too. His wife is into horses, so we always sat at the same table during company functions.

It just goes to show you, you don't need a college degree to get anywhere in this life.

SFTS said...

That is fine with me, CCC. I told you that before.

NHM, actually I looked that up last week and you're right about the Community College thing. Why I looked was because my daughter's HS teacher mentioned having her take classes at the local CC for extra credit. She can take classes there concurrently and get 3 HS credits for every 1 college credit, plus she gets to keep all the college credits to use after she graduates next year. Pretty cool. :)

SFTS said...

Somewhere I remember reading that Bill Gates was a HS dropout, too. Is that correct? *shrugs*

Hell, I don't really use either of my degrees, so they're virtually worthless in my job/career.

My daughter wants to pursue a career as an artist and a writer. She is so incredibly talented, she blows me away...

NewHorseMommy said...

Given that I was a monster at that age, I did not do a lot better at the CC, but a few years later when I returned to school, I applied for "academic renewal" (another concept everyone should be aware of), and deleted the bad courses and kept the good ones. A few of those courses I took at 16, kept me from having to repeat the requirements later on!

SFTS said...


My cat hates sinks. Well, being a typical cat he hates water or anywhere that he may get wet. ;)

On the other hand, most of my horses love water (to make this horse related, lol). Sometimes when I'm watering the arena I have a couple of them who want to be turned out and will stand under the sprinklers. Silly horses!!

SFTS said...

Btw, that ^ was in relation to your comment on the Shame blog, I didn't want to go back over there while I saw you were posting here. ;)

NewHorseMommy said...

The kitler lies in the tub all of the time, and almost takes up the whole thing. I would love to get a photo of him stuffed into the tiny pedastal sink! I'm actually not sure that he will fit.

He is a little overweight, but also very tall and long. The vet said that trim he would still weigh 17 to 18 lbs.

GoLightly said...

"Either way, a good trainer is a good trainer is a good trainer."
What do you ReallY, rEALLy MeaN by that?

I mean, FF, the rich people you work for.
I think you take life a little serious, is all.
Clog the Blog. (snorkle) See? You are funny as hell.
It's my life's WORK, to clog blogger!
To hell with e-mail!
Make Blogger wish they'd NEVER allowed horse blogs on the web!

I swear I can hear blogger bubbling sometimes.
It's horse people and their derivatives.

GoLightly said...

Oh, and I missed that little snideness, but I will let it pass.

Really, though, How IS the music business, by the way?

The one you've been in for years and years?

I do.

SFTS said...

GoLightly wrote:
Really, though, How IS the music business, by the way?

The one you've been in for years and years?

I do.

- - - - - - - -

Is that perchance directed at me?

What's your point, Barb?

I'm headed out on a date with my husband. Yes, he loves me and spoils me!! :)

Dena said...

CCC I looked. It was so funny/strange.
I asked Micah before I found the aerial you directed me to if he thought he might like that state.
He said I would like to have a river and a forest.
I almost crapped my pants because I did not remember the forest.
The child is uncanny...
I made hubby look to.

CharlesCityCat said...


SFTS said...

Hey Dena, just a question. Is this your text/wording?

"I am more familiar with blogger so I thought why not here? Why not present the residents of our facility here. Facility ... laughable name for a few acres of uncertain ownership, a quanset, and some poor fencing. But they say home is where the heart is. And we have plenty of heart. So this is where you will find the information available on our kids. Enjoy...

(bolding emphasis mine)


Dena said...

Yep...those are my words. Uncertain ownership defined by the fraudulent lending practices of one Countrywide Lending.
A person not properly quit claimed off and one person not properly added on.
And a hidden $160,000 loan that one not properly titled person took out against said property.
2 other individuals not properly cancelled on their previous contract for deed still being extorted for payments on a pre-existing contract for deed.
In a nutshell it is a fucking mess.
One that has caused my family no end of anxiety.
And has now entered into the tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.
THIS more than anything causes me to lose sleep at night.
Not to mention the $40,000+ we have already put towards the purchase and removal of messes not of our creation.
I happen to like my barn. It serves.
And I think it is cute.
The fencing I swear my husband has patched together in such a way as to drive fhotd over the edge.
We have new and new to us fencing but have held off installing awaiting the courts decision.
We have $90,000 in damages against people who have virtually nothing.
So what does the future hold?
Who knows?
I do know that we have been invited to live in Pinion Hills if everything goes bad. Or, even if it doesn't.
Just think we could be neighbors.
The simple truth is, I blame myself for this situation.
We looked at this property 2 days before my Mother lost her battle with cancer.
I said, "no." Hubby said, "yes."
As he has always supported me in my endeavors I caved in against my better judgement.
I cannot stress enough I blame me.
I hate thinking that I have played any part in compromising my son's security.
I hate not being able to plan for the future in any type of an absolute way at the moment.
And the single thing that I am most angry at myself about is getting in over my head knowingly.
I knew that I did not know enough to properly research the title of this property.
I knew that we did not have enough money for a long and protracted legal battle.
Hell, I don't even have enough money to bring the septic up to code that the seller defaulted on the contract over.
But mostly, I knew that they were scheisters. I could smell the reek of it coming off from them.
So, the simple truth is, I knew better.
And I did it anyhow.
Ain't that a bitch...
I almost sent hubby packing over this.
But again, I knew better.
But hey, the insurance premiums are paid. And the general liabilty exceeds 1,000,000. The portion I referenced is listed under the general umbrella.
Does that help?
Now to see if I have exceeded blogger character limit.

joanna said...

Dena- Whenever we purchase a property here in OH, a title company is involved. The banks won't loan you anything without it. They make sure the property is in the clear before purchase.

A rescue I know of in CT almost lost their farm because the previous owners didn't pay the property taxes. Even though they are a non profit and don't pay taxes, they had to pay it or lose the farm. They just barely made it.

joanna said...

Oh, and my husband never listens to me either.

Dena said...

Thanks joanna. They don't do they?
We did this contract for deed.
We took immediate possession and then, the sellers were just always unavailable to meet with our attorney.
And of course, we just kept on paying.
When we finally stopped 6 months after they had already defaulted with us and apparently the bank they attempted to have us evicted as renters.
3 times.
The 3rd time the judge thought he was doing everyone a favor by issuing an eviction on our purchase agreement.
So we could all get on with our lives as he put it.
Hello!!! With what? I put almost everything into this.
Damages only count if they are paid or collectible.
So off to appeals court we went.
I owe another $350 towards the renewal of the supersedeas bond next month.*sigh*
There is almost a 100% certainty that we will not lose this round.
But then, we can start all over with the lending company.
This whole situation has on occasion nearly torn our family apart.
The seller being a convicted pedophile who became fixated on our son was just the icing on the cake.
It has been a hard couple of years.
And one hell of an education!
The sad part is, you lose your motivation.
The house isn't painted yet. At first, we didn't want to see someone else benefit from more of work and money.
Now it is money and just being tired.
I didn't plant a garden this year.
I haven't put in the new fencing.
I haven't finished the remodeling I started.
The list goes on and on.
And while I hate that someone else played a part in doing this to us.
I hate that I allowed it.

And then, I remember everyone before us that these assholes took advantage of.
And yes, we have met them all.
From the vulnerable adult, to the naive but wonderfully warm hearted woman, to the woman whose child the pedophile did get his hands on.
And I am reminded that while I am not the smartest I am a little stronger than they were.
And I dig my heels a little deeper and mutter under my breath, "Not on my watch."
I am also reminded that God has his reasons in all things.
And maybe, I just need to accept that it is his will at work here.
Because even though this county acknowledged that that womans child had been molested repeatedly and that child spent the rest of her childhood in fostercare.
They did not one damn thing to the sick and evil man who hurt her.
And I was amazed by the attitude of the community that the woman should have known.
Yeah because evil wears an unmistakable sign that is easily recognizable by all.
Maybe God just decided to utilize the bitch in me.

And SFTS I am thinking you will be drawing some comparisons between us here.
All I can tell you is this.
Nothing in my adult life has been entirely someone elses fault.
There has always been a portion that belongs to me.
Had I never done drugs it is highly unlikely that my children could ever have been taken from me.
Had I not chosen to go against my better judgement I would not be having the ownership difficulty I am experiencing.
The list is endless.
I do not think I am better than you.
Just a little more real at this time.

But enough of my whining. I am cleaniing house and need to get back to it.

horspoor said...

Well Joanna I must be a pig then. I only do clients on referral. I don't post fliers, I don't have a website, and I don't adverstise. The only way you get in the door is if you know somebody that knows me. Most of my referrals come from other trainers, or students.

I also take in horses no one wants, I get the re-treds. The horses they can't go into a pen to catch anymore. And yeah I get them through referral. Donate time and money to local rescues. Help people that need help with their horse for no charge. But formal lessons and training are referrals.

I don't have a standard program. I end up spending way more time than the lesson with these people they enter into my life, home, and animals lives. Before you start spouting off generalities and assumptions I suggest you look a little more into the post you're referring to.

SFTS said...

Back in for a while, dog tired. Excuse me if I may get cranky, LOL.

Dena the reason I asked is because someone else mentioned that you had referred to something or other as a quonset hut (CSE maybe?) then someone sent me the link to your other blog, which had that in the title. I like the idea of that blog, showing off your resident horses to help place them would be a grand thing, especially with needing to get numbers down.

Sounds like a mess, Hell after what I have been through over the past couple of years, I could have seen us in a property buying mess of our own and I thank goodness that we did not get ourselves into that. I would take our present living situation (which really is pretty damn good) over any of that. When we started looking at the real estate market we made a point of immersing ourselves in an education of such, and it has served us well in that respect. Thankfully we had family in the business, and who knew the ropes. They taught us a lot.

>>> "I do know that we have been invited to live in Pinion Hills if everything goes bad. Or, even if it doesn't. Just think we could be neighbors." <<<

I am thinking if you knew everything and the whole truth, you would want NOTHING to do with that. Enough said.

>>> "And SFTS I am thinking you will be drawing some comparisons between us here." <<<

Not really. Because, as you have said, nothing in your adult life has been entirely someone else's fault. I had nothing to do with finding out long after the fact that I was dealing with dishonest people who harbored a child molester. That was brought upon me and has been the cause of much of the havoc wreaked on my family over the past couple of years. There is more, though I accept my fault entirely in the things that have been my fault. My husband's troubles which stemmed from his father's untimely death, though none of that was my doing either, I stood beside him rather than kicking him to the curb, because I believe in him even if he is human and makes mistakes. I have spent almost half of my life with him ~ what we have is definitely worth saving in so many ways. Has it cost us? Yes. But things are finally beginning to turn around because we have taken the reins back, so to speak.

* * * * * * * *

Title search ~ that's required here in California too, Joanna. You cannot even get an approved loan if the TS isn't performed and everything spelled out as far as having clear title.

Dena said...

I am going to go on record here. I happen to genuinely like Buckinbo and her mother.

I find Buckinbo to be a intelligent, charismatic, and in truth, strong young lady.
Who happens to have a wonderful sense of humor.
I enjoy talking to her and hearing her take on horses AND training.

Her mother I count among my dearest friends.
She is far from the weak woman she has been portrayed by some to be.

Sometimes you do not have to know people for very long to know that you would like to know them for the rest of your life.

I feel the same way about Christy and Jack.
And a many others.

Life is short SFTS. To my way of thinking I have made some of the worst mistakes a person possibly can.
It isn't where I wanted to dwell so I changed a lot of things about my life.

I honestly don't care about your or anyones financial status as a criteria to determine whether or not a person is worth knowing.

But when it comes to my friends I just want to know that they have come to a place where they are honest with themselves and me.

joanna this world of horses can be a crazy place.
Taking referrals only is also a good way to protect your reputation.

None of my clients and friends at the time even knew what fhotd or the other boards were.
When they heard from others about it they called and they came.
And they cried for me. And to a person said it is not any of my business but nothing could change my opinion of you.
Yeah...humbling. On my knees and on my face that some people thought so highly of me. Despite, or, in spite of, my past.
Because they already knew of my past from me.

Must go organize cabinets now. These boys have annihilated my sense of order.

SFTS said...

All I am going to say about this, Dena, is you know not what or of whom you speak.

I can guarantee if you have walked in my shoes over the past year, and knew the people who I know that also know the two families you have mentioned, you would feel entirely differently. "Knowing" someone (or a couple of someone's) via telephone and internet communication after having "met" them with a predisposed bias toward their 'side' of a situation means nothing. There is so very much you have NO idea about. You know one side of each sordid tale. Not nearly enough to fully know what you are stepping into.

In dealing with your "newfound friends", watch your back. That comes from personal, VERY personal, IN YOUR FACE personal experience. Sometimes people put up a good front, a facade that sounds viable. I was sucked in. I own that, it was my fault and all I can say is, I didn't know any better. I do now.

>>> "None of my clients and friends at the time even knew what fhotd or the other boards were. When they heard from others about it they called and they came. And they cried for me. And to a person said it is not any of my business but nothing could change my opinion of you. Yeah...humbling. On my knees and on my face that some people thought so highly of me. Despite, or, in spite of, my past. Because they already knew of my past from me." <<<


When I talk of how my clients feel about me, I am endlessly bashed, trashed and flamed here. By you, as well. I will not do the same to you. No one deserves that. Not even you.

joanna said...

I apologize if I offended you, Dena and Horspoor. It's just that I have known several outstanding trainers who took on clients without a referral. A couple of them I rode with. I didn't just walk off the street, but called and set up an appointment. We talked about my experience and my goals. Most people I knew trained with someone who took them on without a referral. And I grew up in the northeast, in snob central. You would think, of all places, it would be hard to train with "a name". If you are training the unwanted horses, great! the world needs more people like you. To many so called trainers want to train and sell horses quickly, creating the monsters you have to fix. If the horse is lucky. If not, then it's a one way trip across the border.

Dena- I said before that I said what I said because what you wrote. It came off as dismissive, arrogant and, quite frankly, rude. I am not the only one who felt this way. If I, or anyone else, had the opportunity to meet you, or talk to you, it may be different. Please reread my post on August 23, 4:23. I believe you said thank you after that.
But you are right, in regard to the pedophile you dealt with, there is no being polite or diplomatic. I shudder to think if it had been my child.

You are right to not fix up your place at this time. As hard as it may be (and I know how angry and frustrated I would feel), why build equity for someone else?

horspoor said...

The referral isn't a snob deal. I have limited time for lessons and training. (This is going to sound snobby or whatever). I have a waiting list as it is. So, I take the ones I'm either worried about their situation with their horse (danger to horse, or student). Or I take somebody that really wants to learn (not I want a blue ribbon).

My latest is a little girl that really wants to ride. I got called because they had purchased a pony. The pony was not what she was represented to be, not in size, age or temperament. Chased the little girl up a tree, was food aggressive, bit and would rear. To compound the issue the girl has a hereditary bone condition. Her bones are softer than they should be. So, she needs instruction, supervision and huge amounts of safety precautions. (This is not your hour lesson once or twice a week). All the while treating her like any other ten year old. Not making her feel odd or fragile. Her attitude is certainly not fragile. She's fearless, and that scares the hell out of me. lol

So, we are on the great horse search. It is hard enough to find a suitable kids horse under the best circumstances. This has certainly raised the bar.

She'd like to show. So, we need papered, pretty, trained, very kind, forgiving solid horse. Of course she'd like a black and white paint. Uh huh. Of course she would. lol

joanna said...

Horspoor- sure, there's lots of ponies like that out there! Around every tree! Good luck. I'd be lucky to find a child safe pony for my daughter that did not cost an arm and a leg. And she's strong and healthy.

No, that did not sound snobby at all. It's understandable. Do you have a day job and train on the side?

Dena said...

joanna I wasn't offended at all. I promise.
I don't know that I do entirely unwanted horses.
Some of the horses I have worked with have been wanted and taken to the brink by the wrong for them people.
I am not a BNT by any stretch.
And my goals are different than a lot of peoples.
I am blunt to a fault and that plays a huge part in determining my clients.
And I have never been afraid to give it away.
But as it is a business I generally give it to those who couldn't get it any other way.
Nor are my patience skills with people as good as they could be so I don't instruct as a source of income.
Does that make more sense?
I do not always change the addressee on my posts when my thoughts wander from one to the next.
So maybe that was some of the confusion too.
I was actually trying to soften my friend HPs post.lol

SFTS here is what I know about life.
Pride causes as many problems as it solves.
It is hard to be in a position where you are dependent on the mercy of others.
I am not going to get into what I think I know of your whole history with the folks mentioned.
And even though you will most likely never believe it YOU and YOUR family have never been the mainstays of our conversations.

To be honest I just want that portion over.
For everyone...
I sincerely wish for better things for you and your family.
Just as I wish good things for my friends.
Misery sucks.

The only thing I honestly wish fro YOU is that you could stand up and say "Hey this is me. Warts and all. Take it or leave it."
And if some people want to leave it SFTS let them.

I don't hate you SFTS. And the only thing I truly dislike is when you insult my intelligence.

As it would appear that you are determined to outlast us all.
May I suggest you try being someone most of us haven't seen in quite some time?

I appreciate your warnings. But please respect that I have a different experience of the people in question.
And please respect that I do like them.
Immensely. And not to spite you.
I just do...

I used to like you too until you got a zipcode in the state of crazy bitch.
I still have a P.O. Box there.

So it stands to reason that we will bang heads from time to time.

I can in all truthfulness tell you that I take no enjoyment from what you may perceive as my attacks on you.
And if, I did not give a fuck ignoring you would be so easy.
Copy and paste and links be damned.

horspoor said...

I do train on the side. Well it was supposed to be on the side. It now takes as much if not more time than my 'real' job. lol

I used to make my living in the horse world. I got pretty disillusioned pretty young and walked away. I did kind of like having my amateur standing back for awhile...lol The looks on some peoples faces when I showed up 5 or 10 years since they'd seen me. Pretty fun. (My 15 minutes of fame....'Is that who I think it is? She can't show ammy, can she? Do you think she's...?) lol Well that fun was pretty short lived. They were still the same. Talking the same shit, doing the same bullshit. Who's who? Who's your trainer? Who's your horse by? Yadda yadda.

Dena said...

HP one of my retail buyers wants 6 14" barrel saddles like yesterday.

As I have exhausted all of my local resources I will be paying shipping anyhow.
Can you help me?
Do you know of any?

joanna said...

I understand. Your time is limited, your good, so you can hand pick your clients.

When I became pregnant with my son, I retired from shoeing. I kept a couple of trim clients, just for a little extra income. One of them moved their horse to a dressage barn for training. The BO was frustrated with the farrier and asked who she used. Well, to make a long story short, I ended up shoeing the barn exclusively. I got to name my price, and if anyone outside the barn asked me to shoe for them, my price was higher. I had a baby to raise, and my time was valuable.

SFTS said...

Here is what I know about life, Dena. Things do not get handed to you. If you wish to be successful, you have to work for it. I have worked VERY hard for everything I have and every success I have ever achieved. There have been many.

You are right about pride. Boy are you right about that. Your pride is why you cannot stand the fact that you might just be wrong sometimes. You are about these new "friends" of yours. Did you miss that part? YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM. You have fallen in love with the facade they want to show you. I cannot stress that enough. If you wish to "like" them, that is your business. But you will have no sympathy from me, or many others, when it bites you in the ass.

We are not "dependent on the mercy of others". Where you came up with that fallacious notion is beyond me. And as for "being myself"? I have never NOT been "myself". I am who I am. I take no prisoners sometimes and when I am wronged I show no mercy. These "friends" of yours have wronged me, to degrees you may never know or be able to comprehend.

As you have lied so often, about so many things, I have zero belief in anything you tell me. None.

So please do not bother to insult my intelligence any longer. I would be more than happy to ignore you, or even co-exist with you. But as long as you keep up with what you have been doing, know I will be there to challenge you every step of the way.

horspoor said...

Dena, what kind of barrel saddles? Price point, or more name brand?

horspoor said...

OKay, let me rephrase that, how much per saddle?

Dena said...

HP the price point depends on the saddle and the shipping.
I wholesale to retailers.

No names are no names but there are some decent ones.


Bigger name?

Rate them on a scale of 1-3
1 being using sound

2 being using sound in good condition

3 being using sound in very good condition.

Are the girths, billets and latigos included.

Price really does depend on the saddle.

Example an American Saddlery that is a 2 and includes everything would be in the neighborhood of
$150 before shipping.

A Blue Ridge that is a 1 would be $125 before shipping.

A S.O. Billy Cook that is a 2 or better could be $350-$450 before shipping.

A SRS $250-$375

A Dakota $175-$275

A Circle Y would depend

A Courts would depend

There are too many names and combinations but I need 6 which and they have to be shipped so I do not have to handle them or be greedy.

I love bargains but who the hell doesn't?

What do you have?

horspoor said...

Okay, I just emailed you some links. They are probably not appropriate. I'll see if I can find the guys info I used to use.

flying fig said...

>>I mean, FF, the rich people you work for.<<

Hmm - I understand what you are saying but I do not envy them or want what they have or feel resentment towards them for having it. Not a chance. I prefer life on a far simpler scale. Never having to worry about bills or healthcare would be nice - but the rest of it? No thanks. :-)

>>I think you take life a little serious, is all.<<

Heee!! ...now that is truly not me in any way. My family would freaking love it if I took life seriously in any way, as they put it. You know, stop doing the useless horse thing, get a real job in graphic arts again, grow up etc. etc. etc. My cousins' kids likely think of me as batty Aunt FF who lives with horses and dogs... I am the family "character"! IMO, aging is mandatory - maturity is optional. ;-)

Dena - when you say FF in your lectures and then continue to say "you" after that, it seems obvious that you are including me in that all-inclusive "you" designation.... but no matter.

>>I used to like you too until you got a zipcode in the state of crazy bitch.
I still have a P.O. Box there.<<

That ^^^ was golden - and made me snort Diet Coke out of my nose. Ooops - TMI?
Dena, maybe you should be a stand-up comedian..

Joanna - our farrier has all but retired - he would rather do stained glass projects... but he still trims at our barn... because he likes me. Not in a romantic way - BWAH! - his wife laughed when someone suggested that! No - we are just great friends - and are equally besotted about TB racing. I always have been - and I finally found a kindred spirit. We did 8 horses here on Thursday morning and yakked our heads off about Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta and the Travers and how much fun it would be to go to the Breeders Cup this year... not that either of us will - but it is fun to talk about it.

His wife loves the fact that I will happily go to the track with him and hang on the rail and talk shop - then she does not have to!

And he does not charge me anything for trimming my two Pasture Art boys - even though Nor can be..... "interesting" ... if he is having a bad day...

Okay - maybe a bit more than "interesting".
How about... "whackadoodle" - yeah, that's it!

Other people call to ask him to do their horses - and he says he no longer accepts any clients and does not do farrier work anymore. Well, except for my end of our farm... heh. The trainer at the top barn can't even talk him into doing her string.

And that ^^^ makes me feel good in a neener neener sort of way... ;-)

Dena said...

FF you AND your scroll finger are soooooo busted.lol
I will work on it. the whole you thing I mean.

Strange but while I was breaking the lawnmower yesterday I started to get some of what you were saying.
And I felt bad. That I had been such a dink.

I would love to go back to the place were we all spend more time laughing than fighting.
Are we there yet?

Shit...a better question might be have we ever been there yet?

flying fig said...

Yeah - we've been there. Off and on between the dinkage, verbiage and uproars... ;-)

I even tried to be there in the midst of some of those tsunamis of venom in the FHOTD comments - but alas, it was all for naught. My feeble attempts at mirth were washed away in a torrent of vitriol ... but if I had used that zip code in the state of Crazy Bitch line - that might have worked...

My scroll finger took the day off.

Sooo - today we took part in a flyball demo at the Seattle Humane Society (not to be confused with HSUS). And the little guy in my avatar (not the famous Flying Fig) was a rock star!! He also charmed all the flyball workshop attendants and their beginner dogs... that's my boy! Now if only he could understand that it is about SPEED and not STYLE. I guess he is more of a hunter than a jumper... ;-)

Barrel saddles? One of the boarders at our upper barn is getting rid of all her western gear - there is a rarely used Crates barrel saddle complete with cinches and latigo - and a SM pad... but it is probably a 15" or 16"...

Did you try Craig's List for your area?

Dena said...

YAY for stylish dog!!! I probably have a home for the Crates too.
How much?
And craigslist would have me running all over the countryside.
I do not know what it is about things in being in my state and me having to drive to look when I could do the same PayPal and ship most like.

That was one of my better lines. I was frustrated.lol

littledog said...

CCC, I do agree with everything you said on the "owning vs. renting" subject (post 220 or so.) The mortgage interest deduction IS a huge advantage of owning, and certainly building equity can never work against you no matter what the market. I congratulate you on making a nice profit on your home, but even more for your wise decisions. Buying a home with good potential resale value and a "no-surprises" loan, timing your renovations when materials cost less, designing them to add to resale value, and timing your sale according to your knowledge as you kept up with the market.

The person who owns some rental properties and finds that their renters prefer renting (was that you, Joanna?) One of the advantages of renting vs. owning, is that when the water heater refuses to heat water or the dishwasher starts leaking, the landlord fixes or replaces it! With no money out of my pocket, and less inconvenience than having to do my own appliance shopping.

"little dog you have your own brand of backbiting"
I'm sorry you feel that way about me, Dena. I said nothing even remotely mean, just disagreed with you that "owning=stability/renting=instability" and gave some general examples. Then you implied I wasn't "capable of intelligent discourse" and you were "bored." So who is the backbiter here?

Dena, I'm truly sorry that your ownership experience has turned into such a nightmare. I wouldn't wish that on anybody, and the people you have been forced to deal with sound like total scum of the earth. I also laud your admission that you should have gotten more ducks in a row and done more research before jumping into the deal. I sincerely do hope that you settle all the issues in your favor and end up with clear title to your place.

That said, situations like yours (and many others from friends, family) are exactly what I was talking about when I disagreed with you that ownership implies, really, anything different than rentership. Your situation actually proves my point.

nccatnip said...

check out Shiloh Tack in Troy, NC. Do not know if they have what you wsnt or the price but their wholesale prices seem pretty decent.
Sorry, no link.

Dena said...

Thanks NCC I will check that.

LD I have a long memory sometimes and short in other instances.

I appreciate what you had to say today.
And I recognize that I can be an ass with my lofty dismissals of others.
FF and a few others pointed that out to me.
I would say it is part of my charm but there is no real charm in being rude.

Let's go from today shall we?

SFTS said...

Seems like you stirred up quite the controversy on the FiSH forum, Dena. O.o

Dena said...

Yes SFTS I usually do when I have determined to participate in shutting something down.

And rats always scream the loudest when they are trapped in a corner.

And sometimes the infestations are so severe and the contamination so great you just have to flush the fish.
Dump the litter box. Whatever.

I guess fugs will maybe have to start paying rent instead of trading forums.

horspoor said...

What's the Fish forum?

SFTS said...

Now you want to get the Free Speech forum shut down...why again? Just because you don't like some of what is discussed there?

Dena, you are not the internet horse world's police chief. From the sound of things, you have a lot to handle in your own life what with all the trouble you're having related to your place. Your family probably also would like you to be less aggravated by things going on online (I know that one from personal experience, LOL, my husband hates the horse forums and blogs).

It's not about you, that forum is it's own community. She-who-shall-not-be-named came to that forum of her own volition last year, I believe in April if I recall correctly when I read back thanks to links provided in January. Sometimes people make their own bed, and have to lay on it. That's what happened in this case ~ and I guarantee you throwing threats around and hurtling insults at the posters there will not help your cause.

HP ~ Free Speech message board, the one set up originally as the FHOTD forum. Link here.

flying fig said...

I peek in there maybe once a week... or less... sometimes post... and literally stumbled into that thread this afternoon. I guessed that it would be about a CL ad... and well, it was.

Dena - there are good horsepeople on that board - as I said in my post there - and lots of excellent advice and help. It is not a cesspool of evil as you seem to think. SOme of the regualrs can be rather vocal - but then, some of us are known to be that way, too.

buckinbo (who we are not supposed to be talking about ;-) ) has had a lot of great advice there... and asked for it. Also rebuffed it with venom and insults at times (there as well as on other forums) - but whatever. But there has been sincere help offered and concern expressed... and she has benefitted from it - and in the latest instances been gracious and thankful for that help.

That forum is not associated with Cathy in any way any more - that has been the case for quite a while. Unmoderated forums abound... and actually that one is quite tame compared to what one can find out there. Threatening legal action against such forums will go nowhere... as they are specifically noted as being unmoderated - and parents must assume the responsibility for minors that may take part. Many over there did not realize that buckinbo was a minor - she claimed to be older a few times.

HP - it is the Free Speech Board that used to be part of FHOTD - but is now a seperate entity.

flying fig said...

Huh. Somehow SFTS posted ahead of me with a link. I swear that there was nothing there when I started my post. Oh well. I must have had a brain fart.

Dena - if you are going to "shut down" or police all the forums or blogs where bb has been discussed after she has posted there (or may continue to do so) - you are not going to get any of that pigweed mowed... or that house cleaned... ;-)

*apologies for the crappy typos that may occur - my proof reading is obviously not up to par*

SFTS said...

LOLing here FF...we must have been posting at essentially the same time.

It's not going to do any good, any of Dena's ranting and complaining. Just as she didn't get FHOTD shut down, just as she has not been able to get me thrown out of the Blogger community ;) ~ ain't gonna happen.

Ah, well.

Dena ~ you really, REALLY have no room to talk about anyone, considering the most recent 'news' about you. o.O

NewHorseMommy said...

Which thread is this occuring on?

Dena said...

FF I left you a response there. I don't wish to fight about it here.
I am not saying that is what you are doing.
I just do not have the patience to reiterate my position on this.
That has nothing to do with you it is just me.

SFTS I could give 2 shits and a shake less what you think about most anything.
You are so predictible that one could set a clock by you.

Another poster said it best. Your fixation on me is creepy.
Oh......and Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!!!

HP someone there even accused me of being sexually involved with my children.
Not to mention there have been several inappropriate references to Buckinbo with regard to sexual content.

And no offense to FF but anyone who was directly involved in the bashing over there that says they didn't know that she IS a minor is full of shit.
That was the premise of their attacks. They just wanted to save the poor child from endangering herself. HA!
Isn't that right SFTS???

Terribly classy place that FSHF.

SFTS said...

NHM, it's the "now is the time to breed grade horses" thread ~ here:



NewHorseMommy said...

I found it...

Dena said...

What new news SFTS? That I supposedly have sex with my children?

Or my felony conviction for assualting an officer of the law?

Please do be specific.

I have not devoted one moment to addressing your violations of terms and conditions of use.
Until today.
Mark it on you calendar or maybe just check the clock.
I give you 2 days at most.

SFTS said...

MY obsession with YOU?!?!?!?! LMAO!!!!!!!! Oh, that is truly one of the funniest things I have ever heard!!

Another lie ~ NO ONE accused YOU of "being sexually involved with your children. The statement was included in text from the internet regarding the case(s) where your children were taken from you.

One of the posters made this comment:
"This individual has a history of mental illness and drug abuse, along with facilitating sexual abuse among her own children."

Which came from the following:
"On May 29, 2001, Rodacker voluntarily placed both A.I.R. and J.R., Jr. in foster care. She stated that bad things were happening where she lived, including a claim that the children had been sexually abused and that she could not keep them safe."

Public court records.


Wow, whatta gal.

SFTS said...

You're getting more delusional by the moment, Dena.

Good grief, woman. Please go get back on some meds, if not for your own sake, for that of your family and your horses.

horspoor said...

Okay. Enough. Really enough. What the hell is wrong with the both of you. This is just ugly, ugly beyond belief.

SFTS so help me god if you say something along the lines of she started, I'm just defending myself, I never start it, I'm innocent... I will probably die of an aneurism of the brain on the spot and my death will be on your head. I will come back and haunt you.

SFTS said...

Oh no worries HP, this part here I definitely started.

Because folks here who think Dena is so ever loving wonderful need to see her true, ugly colors.

She has gone after me endlessly, she has worked tirelessly to wreak havoc on my life and she has heaped lie after lie after lie about me across various forums.

It's the least I can do, help to expose her for what she is.

horspoor said...

How the hell do either of you know what the other really is. Oh, court documents...yeah BFD. Grew up in a family of lawyers, judges, paralegals...court docs can be very misleading.

Oh, you talked to this person, or that person and they said this, and they know them, related to them what the hell ever. I call BULLSHIT...that is what somebody said about somebody else.

Neither of you KNOW...really know anything about the other person. He said, she said doesn't get it. It's like the guy pretending to know what wine he's drinking. He states in a superior way, "Oh it's a Cab, or possibly a Zin." And you reply, "It's a Cab." And he smugly says, "Oh, I knew it was a Cab." No he fucking didn't...he thought he knew, but he wasn't sure. All he really knew is it was a dry red...he didn't know the particulars.

horspoor said...

I'm going to drink some milk. It brings down your blood pressure. Did you all know that? Well it does.

Dena said...

What I am SFTS is someone who has no fear of the truth of my life.
And the truth is not always flattering.
And often misrepresented and

So do what you feel you must. It affects me not at all.

SFTS said...

HP, honestly. Dena paraded herself over to the FSH forum today and made an ass of herself. Again. They are ripping her to SHREDS. And she just keeps digging herself in deeper. I don't even think she realizes any of this.

Good grief Dena, you are getting yourself torn to pieces by people who could have been on YOUR side in the rampage you have been on against Cathy/FHOTD. How stupid is that?

>>> "It affects me not at all". <<<

Right. That would be why you're getting all worked up, pissed off and throwing your baseless threats around (again)?

Give it a rest.

Dena said...

HP did you find the information for the other wholesaler?

I had the farrier out today. 2nd time in the last 2 weeks.
The first time was for the shoe babies.
Today was 10 trims.
I got tired just holding them.

Having only 4-7 is looking better and better all the time.

I don't want to make your head explode.
I will ignore her.

SFTS said...

Here's the thing. That thread on the forum was pretty much DEAD.

Up until Dena's post late last night, it had gone a number of pages back on the board and everyone was leaving it alone.

Along comes Dena, Dena to the rescue, and it blows up into this giant shitstorm.

All because Dena JUST ... COULD ... NOT ... LEAVE ... IT ... ALONE.

You can never just ignore me, Dena. That's what has gotten you involved in so many pissing matches over the past several months. Because you WON'T just LEAVE IT.


CharlesCityCat said...

Some people need to learn to take their own advice.

Why do you concern yourself so much?

fernvalley01 said...

Lord knows why I am dipping my toe back into this particular puddle , but really STFS ,now you are concerned that Dena is making a fool of herself? Somehow I find that a little hard to swallow.

horspoor said...

Dena I haven't found his name.

His business was something like, 'equine supply direct'. Sorry.

You are looking for new right?

SFTS said...

CCC, FV ~ I am not concerned for Dena in this at ALL. She made this bed, she's got to lie in it. All I am doing is pointing out facts.

I understand that as her friends, you two (and a few others here) will jump to her defense. Definitely understandable. But at some point, even those of you who do (did) consider her your friend should be able to impress upon her that this sort of thing is nothing short of self-destructive. It's obviously eating her alive inside.

Were I her friend, I would stop at nothing to try to convince her that all this is just not worth it, that she is fighting an imaginary foe, one that she cannot defeat, and in the end it will drive her more mad than she already is.

But, whatever.

Dena said...

HP used is good too. New sources are always something to be explored.
But used is good too.
Don't be sorry you and NCC gave me some very good lead/links I might not have come across.

FF I am interested in the 16" Crates if you have the info on it.

GoLightly said...

"Seems like you stirred up quite the controversy on the FiSH forum, Dena. O.o"

Funny, I thought this thread was done.

Dena had said a lovely thing, and admitted she's a royal twit, as we all can be.

Nobody gives a shit, except (obviously) you & FF & Dena.
Now you've infested NHM.
She's a VIRGIN!

The rest of us reading?

Please, please, play in the sandbox that the others interested are already playing in.

(I know, it's hard to believe, what with the story line being SO fascinating, and all)
just don't want to play there.

Some of us reallY do NoT care.
In this sandbox, anyway.

(throws toy excavator at CCC)
Hurry up with that castle, wench!

I have empires to topple!

wow. So much HAPPENS,eh?

Go to one blog, donate (OR ask for money) become a drug addict, without my knowledge, come to this blog, get labeled an internet stalker, ANDDDDD then, piece de resistance,
(lucky for me) (drum roll,please)

Three for three, and I'm outta the park!!

Oh, and yes, I did learn something from you, dear on and on.
Standing martingales are allowed in the US, in schooling jumpers.
Not in Canada, though.
No? I remember everything.
One thing, be proud of that one thing I learned from you.
You like ribbons. WhoopdeeDo.

everything else, is just a blur of

Get back into music, it may calm you.

The Shame Blog should be ashamed you are posting. I'm ashamed I posted the frickin' link.

Bashing Reiner. Ahlerich.
Good grief.
Why don't you take a run at good old George, while you're at it?
Was that you on the Chronicle Forums, wondering what the big deal about George was?
George Morris and Reiner Klimke are still big deals.
Ask yourself why, and then stfu.

Maybe learn what BTV really means, before you post a pic of it on your website.

(Behind the Vertical)


BiFrickinPolar, now, and out.

CharlesCityCat said...


Let me assure you, Dena is not being eaten alive by anything that is being posted anywhere. She is a big girl and knows exactly what she is doing at all times. Please remember, I know her, and this doesn't mean just on the blogs. You know her not at all.

Please do not concern yourself anymore with what she does on any blog or board, it really isn't any of your business. Like I said before, please take your own advise, myob.

SFTS said...

GL, I really can't read your drug induced rambling any longer, so don't be offended if I don't bother. As you never have anything of value to say, it really isn't any great loss.

CCC, have you ever heard the saying, "You may be judged by the company you keep"? It would do you well to remember that.

CharlesCityCat said...

Yea, Fugly has comments back on her blog, hurry SFTS, if you are lucky, you might be the first asshole back in line.

CharlesCityCat said...


Are you shitting me? Let me compare my personal history versus yours. Do you really want to go there, I mean really?

I would gladly compare my abilities to yours.

SFTS said...

LOL...CCC, sometimes you amaze me with your inability to be impartial.

Being in the medical field I would have expected better of you. Or that you would actually keep your word and ignore me. Birds of a feather, I guess.

Yep, I have already offered a welcome back to Cathy. She is a class act compared to the likes of you.

GoLightly said...


Someone get HP some oxygen, quick!!!!

Please, give her some room.

HP, HP can Ya HEAR me Lass??
Talk to me darlin'!!



That'll be 10 thousand dollars please.
frickin' US health care..

CharlesCityCat said...

Darlin, let us not compare our ability to ignore each other, you are just as much to blame as I am.

Your point about me being in the medical field means exactly what? Please explain, I haven't exactly disclosed anyone's medical history have I?

Your shot about Fugly being more classy than me is really rather um pitiful. Is that the best you can do based on my challenge? Ho Hum, yamn, guess it is time for me to go to bed.

Nighty Night!

joanna said...

wish I could go to bed. canning peaches. 1 1/2 pecks down, 2 1/2 pecks to go. Maybe tomorrow.

toadstoolbob said...


Go shit in a coffee can!

You really are obnoxious!

"Yep, I have already offered a welcome back to Cathy. She is a class act compared to the likes of you."

Whoo whooooo!

You remind me of that weasle Frank Burns in that show MASH.

I have already offered a welcome back to Cathy..nannie nannie boo boo! She likes me more than she likes you!


Grow up SFTS

Sorry JR

These back pain meds make me crazy. I just had my 3rd stinkin surgery!

SFTS said...

Wow...the "Men of Gloves" are in a league of their own. *rolls eyes*

Watching the cat play with his toys is far more interesting than your ranting drivel, Bob. How about laying off the shrooms? Srsly.

>>> "These back pain meds make me crazy" <<<

Well, you're in good company here. There's a whole lotta batshit crazy on this blog.

flying fig said...

>> And no offense to FF but anyone who was directly involved in the bashing over there that says they didn't know that she IS a minor is full of shit. <<

Not necessarily... and this is the last I'll say about it.
Unless you found out her age back when she was posting a lot - which would be more "investigating" than most people care to do, all you saw at a glance was a young person who could easily have been 20 years old breeding horses, training, owning a ranch, posting vids on YouTube, selling horses, looking for boarders, doing vaquero stuff... an adult. And for many it never went past that - they did not even see the stuff on FHOTD.

So yes, they may not have known that she was a minor.

>>Nobody gives a shit, except (obviously) you & FF & Dena.<<

GL - as I said, I stumbled into that thread today by chance as it appeared to be about irresponsible breeding (while I had lunch - BLTs are sooo good). I do post there upon occasion. And there are great horsepeople helping each other out over there... just like here.

I only mentioned it HERE because it was already mentioned - and Dena had mentioned buckinbo earlier.

Please do not include me in SFTS and Dena's battle... :-(

HP - gold stars for your 5:50 post...

Dena - the Crates is 16". But it is not a barrel saddle - even though she insists it is! It is a show/equitation saddle... rough-out seat, 7/8" in skirt rigging, tooling... kinda looks like the one on the bottom left here - but with a rust seat.

She is trying to decide what she wants for it. She has purchased an Aussie Syd Hill to replace it.

Hopefully that one fits her tank-sized QH gelding better... :-)

Dena said...

FF that is funny. I know another woman who rides in a 16" equitation/pleasure Crates.
For barrels.lol

I am still interested. I assume shipping is around $50 from your neck of the woods?

And I appreciate the update. And I don't think you were stirring the pot.
Just expressing your view.

rosesr4evr said...

Good GAWD!! SFTS, you just can't give that shit a rest can you??? So I guess in your comment that you can provide all the basic neccessities to you and yours includes providing shit cans so your family can have a place to drop kids off at the pool and I guess it also includes why you have gotten numerous violations for not providing adequate shelter for your horses that stand out in that hot blazing California desert sun. Yeah you're really providing there toots.

And I think that by now, Dena's court records' readership must have surpassed that of the New York Times. But you still continue to bring it up don't you??

Hike up your skirts and rub some Vagisil on it and get the fuck over yourself.

SFTS said...

Oh lovely, Dena's puppet has returned. *eyeroll*

flying fig said...

Gawd it sucks to get old. Correction on my last post... buckinbo does CHARRO stuff... as opposed to vaquero skills. Charro is most decidedly its own... genre.

And I neglected to mention that some posters at FSH may also not have read the original thread where bb said how old she was and talked about her breeding business. Without that - they may have been clueless about her age.

And that... is that... as my little Swedish grandma would say.

Dena - I just went up to the top barn and left a note on the Not A Barrel Saddle person's tack locker door. She should be up there tomorrow at some point.

rosesr4evr said...


IF and I do say IF, I were Dena's puppet... I would shove the terribly long nose up your wind bag ass and use the puppet strings to hog tie you and call it a day!

Dena said...

Thanks FF I very much appreciate that.
And yep...getting old does sometimes suck.

BittyBonnie said...


Go read your blog, no one else is!

rosesr4evr said...

Her blog is the best cure for insomnia, either that or the best way to get a migraine. Also it needs to be a guide for the "What NOT to do in horses."

NewHorseMommy said...

GL Said:

"Now you've infested NHM.
She's a VIRGIN!"

That was great! I almost spit out my coffee! I try to stay far enough away to avoid actual infestation...

I will admit to a morbid fascination with the whole thing. Much like a train wreck. You know you should not look, but it's hypnotic.

You know, I hate television (except for the Tudors which is the GREATEST SHOW EVER), pretty much always have, but the worst of those reality shows will suck me right in if I'm not careful (think "Rock/House of Love" or whatever it's called with the old guy from Poison).

I have my opionions on the whole mess but refrain from commenting or openly taking sides (I made my one and only post on the topic some time back).

And I woke up this morning to find comments back on Fugly! Yaaay!

SFTS said...

"What has happened to the horse industry?"

People like Dena got into it. :-/ Then people like Dena sell horses to people like rosesr4evr and BittyBonnie.

NHM ~ at least you know who to stay away from, after reading these blogs and that forum! ;)

Yes, FHOTD has comments back!! And certain people are not welcome, they are moderated now. Yay is right!!

Dena said...

SFTS your avatar looks nice and it is great to see you posting.

NHM The Tudors is the best show on the planet!!!
I thought the actress who played AB
was phenomenal.
And the guy playing Henry isn't half bad.lol

Roses ewwwwwww.ROFLMAO

NewHorseMommy said...

This may cause the end of civilization as we know it,but here goes:

SFTS: I am VERY happy the comments are back on Fugly. I guess I have to re-register or something though...

Dena: I LOVE the actor that plays Henry, and I had a sick sort of thing for Cromwell too.

joanna said...

(nicely done Dena)

CharlesCityCat said...

I so want to see The Tudors. I have heard many good things. I have read alot about that whole time frame in history and find it fascinating. Actually, I love reading all kinds of history. Can you imagine how much different it was back then, everywhere?

horspoor said...

I saw the first season on the Tudors. I enjoyed it. CCC, it is for the most part historically correct...little drama added. But the actual timing and events that are taking place are pretty much dead on.

NewHorseMommy said...

RE Tudors: You can buy the first two seasons on DVD, or get them through Netflix. I don't think season 3 is available yet.

There are some historical inaccuracies, but they are easy to overlook as the show is just so outstanding otherwise! As I mentioned, I hate TV, and don't have the attention span for movies, but I actually sobbed when they executed AB.

The actors/actresses are fantastic, and the scenery is beautiful. Peter O'Toole was brilliant! There's also LOTS of horses to look at!

I can't wait for season 4 (last season). It's the only reason I pay for cable and my husband is going to have to take over the cable bill when the show ends.

CharlesCityCat said...

Okay, that seals the deal, will get the available DVD's.

rosesr4evr said...

First, let me correct you on something: I have never purchased, nor received any horse(s) from Dena. Though I would certainly purchase one from her before I would ever entertain the thought of getting one from you.

That being said, the horse industry has always been full of cheats, scammers, wannabes, know-it-alls(no nothing or just enough to be dangerous), people that claim to be experts, the list goes on and on. There are the people that want to be in horses and "the scene" so very badly that they make extremely bad life choices for themselves and they're families.

rosesr4evr said...

Whoops!*Their families*

SFTS said...

Do you actually understand the concept of "HYPOTHETICAL", roses?

Honey, I wouldn't sell you a horse if you were the last human being on Earth. Don't kid yourself.

Btw, your mentor is getting herself a new asshole ripped. You may wish to ask her where, so you can run over there and defend her.

SFTS said...

NewHorseMommy wrote:
SFTS: I am VERY happy the comments are back on Fugly. I guess I have to re-register or something though...
- - - - - - - -

:) Yeah, you have to register with WordPress, they are now hosting the blog, instead of Google/Blogger.

I'm happy, too. But even more, I am thrilled that the Crazy which has jackknifed itself all over this blog will not be allowed or tolerated there anymore. Oh happy day!!

rosesr4evr said...

Oh and SFTS, I don't think that renting a bumper pull travel trailer parked on someone else's rented property(meaning that you pay them for the priveledge of parking your rented tin can on their property) a beautiful living arrangement. There's renting and then there's hovelling. It is possible to rent a place that facilitates you being able to purchase a home in the future. We did that, I can understand that. However, there are standards of living regardless of whether you rent or own.

I guess some people could live in their vehicles until a time came along that they're able to buy or change their unsavory living arrangements. But until that time comes along, they're generally called homeless, especially when they shit and piss in the alley (shitcans, whatever).

I have mostly found that there are 3 types of renters out there.

1. The person who just doesn't want to be bothered with home ownership. Let's face it, it's a lot of responsibility and work, not to mention, expensive.

2. The people who are not yet in a position to buy, but fully intend to and will be able to. (that last part is a biggie) You can want and intend to buy all you want, having the ability makes the difference. Just like you can wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up faster than one of Stacy's shitcans.

3. The people who will never be able to buy,whether they wish they could or not. These people generally move from place to place, sometimes even being evicted several times. They leave their garbage and mess behind for others to clean up. They generally don't take care of the property they've been given the priveledge of renting, oftentimes destroying it while living there. Now this may not apply to all renters of this category, there are exceptions to everything. There are some renters that landlords just thank their lucky stars to have in their properties, but these are usually few and far between.

With all that said, there was a discussion on whether a trainer should rent or own a facility. I have seen both sides. I will tell you that I would feel more comfortable with the one who owns, rather than rents.

Training abilities aside, this one thing would give me a certain moments pause. And for the same reason that most of the time, home owners get more benefits than do renters. Home owners have something of value that they have put a lot into and that holds value in most markets if not all, be they boon or bust. Owning a home means equity, it says that you are stable and responsible, credit worthy, that you pay your bills. Otherwise you would be in court being sued, leins put against said property, foreclosed on, etc. Which is why title searches on any prospective property to make sure it has a clean and clear title are of the utmost importance when purchasing a home. These are not always possible when doing a CFD and those will not be discussed.

This is why home owners as a general rule enjoy some perks that renters just don't get. It's a huge responsibility, major work, and lots of money and time. That's why homeowners get these perks. They also aren't too likely to pull up stakes in the middle of the night, to never be seen or heard from again.

Now to be clear, I'm not knocking renters. Far from it. I enjoyed being a renter before the purchase of this house. It has it's upsides to be sure. I'm just saying that homeowners usually are seen as having more stability and you're more likely to take a chance on someone who has assets as opposed to someone who only has a pot to piss in and not much else.

rosesr4evr said...

Contrary to your belief, I don't need to defend Dena, nor does she need me to defend her.

As for not selling me a horse, THANK GOD! Although I do feel it would be a better home than yours, since I really do feel that it's part of caring for a horse properly to make sure that all of it's needs are met, including those that are most basic, like shelter from the blistering desert sun!

rosesr4evr said...

I just LOVED your showing(LL) of the pally filly. Maybe instead of perusing the rulebooks, you should've checked out some nice breed shows or some videos on Youtube to see how it's done and what's expected of you and your horse while in the class. And matching your horse's color with your outfit is generally not a good idea. A complementary color scheme would've been much better or classic and understated.

I still think you would benefit from the slimming properties of some well placed stripes. LOL!!

rosesr4evr said...

You know, insted of that show number on your back it should read: San Bernadino County Correctional Facility. But then you say that you've never been to jail. That's all right, you could just borrow a pair of them from your husband.

Dena said...

Give a girl a little warning when you are gonna blow up a room.

You are funny. I am still laughing about getting my ass ripped.
I thought I was sitting on it.
It was a good day...

littledog said...

"Owning a home means equity, it says that you are stable and responsible, credit worthy, that you pay your bills."

How nice that people still believe that.

rosesr4evr said...


If you're going to quote me, do it right.

"Owning a home means equity, it says that you are stable and responsible, credit worthy, that you pay your bills. Otherwise you would be in court being sued, leins put against said property, foreclosed on, etc."

And yes, owning your own home still means this, even in this poor economic time.

SFTS said...

FF you are so very right about the differences between vaqueros and charros. Vaqueros are horsemen that treat their animals well and do not abuse them. To a vaquero, training a horse is an art. Charros are abusive pieces of shit. End of story.

Littledog, well said. Again! :)

roses...LOL thank you for the entertainment last night on the FiSH forum. I thought you were so proud of the "fact" that you "only post at night". Fancy seeing you here in the mid-morning. How about paying attention to your child instead of spouting bullshit endlessly in a place where you are so obviously unwanted?

I know, silly me for thinking you might actually do something reasonable. ;)

GoLightly said...

SFTS your avatar looks nice and it is great to see you posting.

SFTS said...

Awww, thank you GL...why don't you come on over to the forum? They can always use an educated equestrienne like yourself over there in the horse related discussions.

horspoor said...

SFTS your avatar looks nice, and quite apt. Good to see you posting.

rosesr4evr said...

That's funny SFTU. At the moment he is currently taking his nap. What do you suggest I do? This is my free time and I will do whatever with it that I please.

oh and by the way....SFTS your avatar looks nice and it is great to see you posting.

rosesr4evr said...

I see that you are inviting others over to the forum where you think you have friends or supporters. I find that amusing. What’s the matter? Couldn’t take getting your ass handed to you on a daily basis over here and on other blogs?? LOL

I don’t blame you. It is rather nice to feel welcome and accepted. It must be a rather unique feeling for you. Oh well, savor it while it lasts.

SFTS said...


CharlesCityCat said...

Must resist the temptation!

Must resist the temptation!

Must resist the temptation!

rosesr4evr said...


SFTS your avatar looks nice and it is great to see you posting.

flying fig said...

Charro. As practiced by those who cannot really care about the horse, it is Trip It, Tie It, Sit On It. Severe, inappropriate bits. Jerking, spurring and whipping. Words not to live by and yet seen as the only way to handle horses by some.

So sad. Not at all about a partnership - but about domination and, at times, outright abuse.


Not A Barrel Saddle Somewhat Ditzy Boarder ;-) has decided to keep her Not A Barrel Saddle.

I expect it will gather dust next to her $3500 Passier Antares dressage saddle. Which actually is a dressage saddle. And a lovely one. I think she sat in it once. Not on the horse. Oh well... it would not fit him anyway.

>>"Owning a home means equity, it says that you are stable and responsible, credit worthy, that you pay your bills."<<

I do have to agree with littledog on this not being 100% true anymore.... as witnessed by so many foreclosures etc. going on.

rosesr4evr said...

"Owning a home means equity, it says that you are stable and responsible, credit worthy, that you pay your bills. READ THIS PART!!~Otherwise you would be in court being sued, leins put against said property, foreclosed on, etc."

If you owe money to others that has caused you to not have equity in your home, then these things happen to you. And if it weren't for the equity in your home, no one would have a sinners chance in hell of ever getting any kind of monetary recourse out of you! The fact that a home or property has leins put against it or that it gets foreclosed on is that is has equity or some value in getting back what you owe to others. Be that the bank, mortgage company, or anyone else you owe money to. That's why in any type of lending, owning a home is condsidered having assets or some security. Hence the term secured loan as opposed to unsecured.

Do I need to get out the alphabet blocks???

flying fig said...

No need for alphabet blocks. I am not as dumb as you suggest... ;-)

I just know some stable, responsible, credit-worthy people who have always paid their bills whose houses are in foreclosure.

The fact that hard times/medical emergencies fell upon them and they are in the process of losing their houses does not make them unstable, irresponsible, or suspicious in any way....

Dena said...

FF thanks for checking all the same.
I really appreciate it.

roses it goes like this.

God grant me the strength to change the things I can.
The serenity to accept the things I cannot.
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Translation? Do not let someone elses issues piss up your day.
I knnnoooowwwww...I said that.
Now if everyone would just sponser me in achieving it.
I promise you B if she was firing on all cylinders I would so be there.

What would everyone like to see pictures of today?
Roses you first.

flying fig said...

I forgot to add this to my last post. I have previously mentioned the dressage trainer down the road - who owns her own place as I have said. She is not stable. She is not credit-worthy. She is always scrambling to pay bills - IF she pays them. Two hay dealers around here refuse to do business with her anymore. But the place still looks nice from the outside (mainly thanks to all that PVC fencing that was there when she bought the place) and she still gets a few new students (with blinders on) ... but it all means nothing as far as being responsible goes...

I'm just saying that blanket statements are not always applicable.

Sometimes I wish that our Not A Barrel Saddle boarder would be hypnotized by that pretty fencing and move down there... ;-) .. but then, I would miss all the expensive, unused tack that I get to look at!

GoLightly said...

"God grant me the strength to change the things I can.
The serenity to accept the things I cannot.
And the wisdom to know the difference."


I read that in a Kurt Vonnegut novel, waaaaay before AA stole it.

littledog said...

Roses said,
"Owning a home means equity, it says that you are stable and responsible, credit worthy, that you pay your bills. READ THIS PART!!~Otherwise you would be in court being sued, leins put against said property, foreclosed on, etc."

If you owe money to others that has caused you to not have equity in your home, then these things happen to you. And if it weren't for the equity in your home, no one would have a sinners chance in hell of ever getting any kind of monetary recourse out of you! The fact that a home or property has leins put against it or that it gets foreclosed on is that is has equity or some value in getting back what you owe to others. Be that the bank, mortgage company, or anyone else you owe money to. That's why in any type of lending, owning a home is condsidered having assets or some security. Hence the term secured loan as opposed to unsecured.

Do I need to get out the alphabet blocks???"

Since you expressed that I didn't quote you "properly" earlier, I'm quoting you "properly" this time by C&Ping the whole thing. Even though "too much C&P" is SO hated!

The first point I'm trying to make, is that banks are still giving "creative" loans to people whose abilty to maintain those payments over the long term is questionable. Realtors and banks are, even more now, pushing buyers to make offers that stretch the limits of their comfort zone. You can't blame the brokers and agents, they are also subject to this economy and have to make a living from their commissions, which have been a lot more meager lately.
But all it takes for the buyer is a layoff, medical emergency, company transfer or military deployment, and they are now in danger of losing their home. None of those situations have any relation to how responsible or credit-worthy they are.

Point #2: Owning a home has traditionally meant that you are building equity. But in reality, it hasn't necessarily meant that for the past 4-5 years. So many homes are for sale these days because responsible, credit-worthy owners expected the home to appreciate in value and it has actually lost value. And if they borrowed against the equity to rehab or update the home (which most people tend to do, because it would add to the home's value if the economy were normal) they are now SOL and facing a break-even sale, a short-sale, and possibly even risking foreclosure.

I'm not saying that "owning is irresponsible and renting is better", as some have flippantly considered my opinion to mean. I am saying that owning a property today carries more of a risk than it did 5 years ago, so if you're currently renting with a long-term lease, you are probably in a stable situation and should be patient about buying for the time being.

I haven't researched this, but I bet if you take 10000 people who have lived in their home for the past 5 years, you wouldn't find any difference in their credit scores, whether their home is owned or rented.

Point#3-Today's economy is truly weird, and you can't really count on the traditional expectations of value, equity, etc. being coherent.

Roses, I do congratulate you on your new home, I expect that you made wise decisions and hope it will turn out to be a good long-term home for you, as well as a good investment.

Please wish us luck too-just today we found our ideal home but lost out in a bidding war (every time we go through this we educate ourselves a little more) but in the meantime, we're content with our current rental and we won't settle for something less than ideal, or go out of our financial comfort zone just to be owners.

Hayley said...

so i quickly read all 365 comments, and i apologize if someone has already brought it up and i missed it, buts it annoying for me to read someone who gives every impression of being more involved with the drama of the situation(like OMG girl, i got an email) and my tack, my precious used curry combs, than the horse? She shows no signs of being upset about the horse, its well-being, the fact that she can't see it.
I feel better now :)

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